Steps stopped working - even on shore power?

[Mygirlscats]

Hi! I’ve been troubleshooting the automatic steps on my Citation. They were fine last week, then today we opened the door and got nothing. No light, no motor sound, nada. I crawled under the rig with a multimeter, tested the four-way pigtail from the coach that powers the steps and got a power reading of about 6 volts.

So then I checked the house batteries (two 12 V batteries wired in parallel) and got a reading of 6.14 volts on each of them. That’s not good. When I unplugged from shore power, we got nuthin’… not even one light would go on. Clearly we need new batteries.

But here’s the question: when I plug back in (30 amp), everything seems to work except for the steps, which remain stubbornly retracted. If I’m plugged in to shore power, wouldn’t the steps get power in the same way that the lights and water pump do? Or are they wired differently?

 

[16ACE27]

Hi! I’ve been troubleshooting the automatic steps on my Citation. They were fine last week, then today we opened the door and got nothing. No light, no motor sound, nada. I crawled under the rig with a multimeter, tested the four-way pigtail from the coach that powers the steps and got a power reading of about 6 volts.

So then I checked the house batteries (two 12 V batteries wired in parallel) and got a reading of 6.14 volts on each of them. That’s not good. When I unplugged from shore power, we got nuthin’… not even one light would go on. Clearly we need new batteries.

But here’s the question: when I plug back in (30 amp), everything seems to work except for the steps, which remain stubbornly retracted. If I’m plugged in to shore power, wouldn’t the steps get power in the same way that the lights and water pump do? Or are they wired differently?

Steps get power from the chassis battery in most cases. What's the voltage on your chassis battery?

 

[dkoldman]

What happens when you start the engine? You did not say voltage on Engine batteries. Some steps are wire to Engine batteries.

Regardless no light no power.

When you had shorepower but no light, was the voltage still 6.14 or did you check to see what it was.

Short of that you may wish to provide make and model number of steps.

 

[Mygirlscats]

It’s a 2016 Citation motor home.

If I start the ignition, an override switch will retract the steps. I haven’t cranked the ignition since the steps are already retracted. Also, after unplugging from shore power the supply to the step motor was reading about six volts: same as the reading on the battery.

I just wanted to confirm that the steps are not meant to run off shore power. If they should be operating when we are plugged in, then I have more troubleshooting to do. If they only run off the house batteries, then changing the batteries should (hopefully!) resolve the problem.

 

[Mygirlscats]

16Ace27, when you say chassis battery do you mean the engine rather than the house?

 

[dkoldman]

It’s a 2016 Citation motor home.

If I start the ignition, an override switch will retract the steps. I haven’t cranked the ignition since the steps are already retracted. Also, after unplugging from shore power the supply to the step motor was reading about six volts: same as the reading on the battery.

I just wanted to confirm that the steps are not meant to run off shore power. If they should be operating when we are plugged in, then I have more troubleshooting to do. If they only run off the house batteries, then changing the batteries should (hopefully!) resolve the problem.

If engine is running and you open the door the steps should EXTEND. I was just trying to cover one base of power because with engine running you would be aided by alternator.

But if you only have 6 volts, the steps certainly will not work. I was actually asking the make and model of the steps?

Based on what you have said sounds like the batteries are still low on voltage? If I assume your step controller is like mine, it requires some minimum voltage to extend. This avoids it from getting stuck extended when power is low. i.e if it is extended and voltage starts to drop it will retract

The Shore power or step switch question depend on how wired; could be getting 12vdc direct from DC Bus, but if for some reason it is direct to house battery it may not have adequate voltage yet. If it is direct to Engine battery the above ignition test would have allowed the steps to extend when door was opened.

My unit is wired to house battery FWIW.

 

[16ACE27]

16Ace27, when you say chassis battery do you mean the engine rather than the house?

Yes. Starting the engine does not retract the steps if the door is open. Not starting the engine is causing a big piece of the puzzle to be missing.

Steps NEVER run off SP (connected or not), they run off 12 VDC from batteries. SP has no effect on steps operation.

 

[Mygirlscats]

Aha and thanks to both of you!

I don’t know the model of the electric steps; they are made by Kwikee but if there’s a model number it’s not visible. It’s a two-step unit.

Now that I have clarity that the step is not powered by the shore electricity, I am ready to accept that replacing my batteries will fix the problem and I don’t have a separate issue with the step. Since the cable feeding the step motor shows the same voltage as the dying house batteries, I’m pretty sure that’s the source of the power.

Found a shop that can replace my batteries next week, so that should do me.

Thanks for the peace of mind!

 

[dkoldman]

Aha and thanks to both of you!

I don’t know the model of the electric steps; they are made by Kwikee but if there’s a model number it’s not visible. It’s a two-step unit.

Now that I have clarity that the step is not powered by the shore electricity, I am ready to accept that replacing my batteries will fix the problem and I don’t have a separate issue with the step. Since the cable feeding the step motor shows the same voltage as the dying house batteries, I’m pretty sure that’s the source of the power.

Found a shop that can replace my batteries next week, so that should do me.

Thanks for the peace of mind!

Sounds like what I have. My Kwikee steps would random retract when the should have been extended. I had good power on the 12vdc bus and very good batteries. Dealer could not find an issue as the Kwikie Troubleshoot steps confirmed Step controller and motor was find. I kept at it and one day I found that a 12 pin connector right off the 12vdc bus has a lose pin and guess what it fed, the step switch. It would barely make contact and thus a big drop in voltage. I fixed that pin and the problem went away.

You seemed to have diagnosed well since voltage is same at both places. Bad batteries cause a lot of problems in a lot of ways. Good luck.

 

[Dan-sr@perra-us.net]

Hi! I’ve been troubleshooting the automatic steps on my Citation. They were fine last week, then today we opened the door and got nothing. No light, no motor sound, nada. I crawled under the rig with a multimeter, tested the four-way pigtail from the coach that powers the steps and got a power reading of about 6 volts.

So then I checked the house batteries (two 12 V batteries wired in parallel) and got a reading of 6.14 volts on each of them. That’s not good. When I unplugged from shore power, we got nuthin’… not even one light would go on. Clearly we need new batteries.

But here’s the question: when I plug back in (30 amp), everything seems to work except for the steps, which remain stubbornly retracted. If I’m plugged in to shore power, wouldn’t the steps get power in the same way that the lights and water pump do? Or are they wired differently?

What is the chassis (Engine) battery voltage? If it is also low I wonder do you have the "Use/Store" switch in "Use" position? Many if not all units do not change the batteries when the Use/Store switch is in Store.

 

[Mygirlscats]

Hi, did a bit more troubleshooting. We fired up the engine and took our baby out for a drive (first time this year). I didn’t think to check the engine battery but it’s been on a battery tender since it went into storage and it started right up like a champ.

When we got back after about an hour’s drive, the house batteries were reading over 12 volts (although they were in the range of 6 volts before we went driving). The steps are extending and retracting, but they won’t stay out when we close the door, regardless of whether we turn the step switch on or off.

After we’d been home for two hours, the voltage reading on the house batteries started to drop; by dinnertime they were reading 11.9 volts.

So… not sure why they charged up so happily with the alternator but were nearly flat when we were plugged in to shore power before the drive. Clearly we’ve fried the batteries as they won’t hold a charge and we are going to replace them, but I’m still concerned about why they took a charge while driving but were totally drained while on shore power.

Is there anything that I can check myself to confirm that my power converter is charging the batteries properly? The converter is a WFCO WF-8955PEC and was powering two 12V 100 amp batteries wired in parallel.

Thanks!

 

[dkoldman]

Hi, did a bit more troubleshooting. We fired up the engine and took our baby out for a drive (first time this year). I didn’t think to check the engine battery but it’s been on a battery tender since it went into storage and it started right up like a champ.

When we got back after about an hour’s drive, the house batteries were reading over 12 volts (although they were in the range of 6 volts before we went driving). The steps are extending and retracting, but they won’t stay out when we close the door, regardless of whether we turn the step switch on or off.

After we’d been home for two hours, the voltage reading on the house batteries started to drop; by dinnertime they were reading 11.9 volts.

So… not sure why they charged up so happily with the alternator but were nearly flat when we were plugged in to shore power before the drive. Clearly we’ve fried the batteries as they won’t hold a charge and we are going to replace them, but I’m still concerned about why they took a charge while driving but were totally drained while on shore power.

Is there anything that I can check myself to confirm that my power converter is charging the batteries properly? The converter is a WFCO WF-8955PEC and was powering two 12V 100 amp batteries wired in parallel.

Thanks!

The answer to your question is to check your output voltage based on User Manual specification for your converter.

I would have them load tested 1st or at least verify they drop voltage dramatically when disconnected from any possible source draw.

The good news with engine running you confirmed that step controller and step motor are working properly. That alternator puts out a lot of juice, but I doubt one hour is adequate for a full charge.

Your current retract issue is issue I had and dealer never could figure out why my steps would randomly retract. It was due to a drop in voltage but not an issue with my house batteries. Yours sound like a battery issue, but not proven yet. Mine was a hidden loose wire not properly connected.

One other thing to try is to put battery tender that was on the engine on the house batteries and leave it overnight. Check voltage next day with no loads to verify it is fully charged. If not and/or if you see a rapid drop in voltage you know the batteries are toast.

If I were to guess or assume, I would say that while in storage your Converter was not on, maybe because use/store switch was not set for it to run or some other reason. At any rate; some draw eventually took your batteries down and they are likely not any good anymore.

 

[Mygirlscats]

The answer to your question is to check your output voltage based on User Manual specification for your converter.

I would have them load tested 1st or at least verify they drop voltage dramatically when disconnected from any possible source draw.

The good news with engine running you confirmed that step controller and step motor are working properly. That alternator puts out a lot of juice, but I doubt one hour is adequate for a full charge.

Your current retract issue is issue I had and dealer never could figure out why my steps would randomly retract. It was due to a drop in voltage but not an issue with my house batteries. Yours sound like a battery issue, but not proven yet. Mine was a hidden loose wire not properly connected.

One other thing to try is to put battery tender that was on the engine on the house batteries and leave it overnight. Check voltage next day with no loads to verify it is fully charged. If not and/or if you see a rapid drop in voltage you know the batteries are toast.

If I were to guess or assume, I would say that while in storage your Converter was not on, maybe because use/store switch was not set for it to run or some other reason. At any rate; some draw eventually took your batteries down and they are likely not any good anymore.

Does the use/store switch impact the batteries’ charging? I thought it only impacted discharging or releasing power to the coach.

That could be it… last winter I made a habit of setting the switch for “use” about one week per month and left it on “store” the rest of the time. I had a vague idea from something I’d read that this was better than having it on “use” while it was plugged in for months. Was that wrong?

 

[dkoldman]

Does the use/store switch impact the batteries’ charging? I thought it only impacted discharging or releasing power to the coach.

That could be it… last winter I made a habit of setting the switch for “use” about one week per month and left it on “store” the rest of the time. I had a vague idea from something I’d read that this was better than having it on “use” while it was plugged in for months. Was that wrong?

Yes that is it.

I think the Use / Store switch is about the dumbest labeled thing I have ever seen. If you know it is simple, if you read the manual, they don't usually simply how it should be used for the layman.

The way I remember...

Store - Means to shut down the ENTIRE RV of DC power, including converter charging even if SP is available

Use - Means in most cases you will have some DRAW ( unless you find the draws and fix) I can go months on USE and batteries will not drain but that is exception. I have ZERO draw.

So when you store your RV and if you have SP, keep the switch on USE and you will not ruin your batteries.

Based on what you have learned, you will need to 1. Keep converter on if SP is available 2. Put a float charger on House like you did with Engine ( Switch can then be on Store) 3. Get solar to keep batteries topped.

 

[Dan-sr@perra-us.net]

Hi! I’ve been troubleshooting the automatic steps on my Citation. They were fine last week, then today we opened the door and got nothing. No light, no motor sound, nada. I crawled under the rig with a multimeter, tested the four-way pigtail from the coach that powers the steps and got a power reading of about 6 volts.

So then I checked the house batteries (two 12 V batteries wired in parallel) and got a reading of 6.14 volts on each of them. That’s not good. When I unplugged from shore power, we got nuthin’… not even one light would go on. Clearly we need new batteries.

But here’s the question: when I plug back in (30 amp), everything seems to work except for the steps, which remain stubbornly retracted. If I’m plugged in to shore power, wouldn’t the steps get power in the same way that the lights and water pump do? Or are they wired differently?

One thing no one has mentioned yet, how old are the batteries? For want of a better way to say it, batteries wear out eventually. Even when not in use the clock is ticking. The entropy happens faster when the batteries are allowed to drop below a usable level. However, even well-maintained batteries will start to go bad after 3 - 5 years. Also remember that the Use/Store switch does not disconnect everything. Some things still draw small amounts of power. For example, radios usually have a power connection to preserve all your settings.

When you are plugged in the BIM or BIRD or whatever battery isolation circuits you have should keep both the house and chassis ( engine ) batteries charged when you are in the "Use" state.

 

[Mygirlscats]

Been RVing for 30 years, still learning things…!

The batteries in question are four years old, which is one of the reasons I leapt into an appointment to have them replaced. The last pair I had lasted four years so it seemed logical (especially given that I had a 6V reading when I tested them). As I understand it, once flooded lead acid batteries have discharged that deeply, there’s no redeeming them.

So I should keep the “use/store” switch on “use” all winter long, while the coach is plugged in to shore power? The house batteries are stuffed into a very compact area and would be a royal pain to physically remove, as some people say you should do in the winter. We live in a temperate region where the freeze never lasts terribly long or gets super cold, so I haven’t worried much about that aspect of winter storage.

 

[Beau388]

Been RVing for 30 years, still learning things…!

The batteries in question are four years old, which is one of the reasons I leapt into an appointment to have them replaced. The last pair I had lasted four years so it seemed logical (especially given that I had a 6V reading when I tested them). As I understand it, once flooded lead acid batteries have discharged that deeply, there’s no redeeming them.

So I should keep the “use/store” switch on “use” all winter long, while the coach is plugged in to shore power? The house batteries are stuffed into a very compact area and would be a royal pain to physically remove, as some people say you should do in the winter. We live in a temperate region where the freeze never lasts terribly long or gets super cold, so I haven’t worried much about that aspect of winter storage.

Think of the use/store switch as "a house battery isolation switch". When in the store position, the house batteries are never connected to anything. Those with a solar charges system or a separate trickle charger will still have the house batteries charged as these are separate charging system.

As far as the Thor MC engineers are concerned, when you store the coach on shore power; you are still USING the coach's charger to maintain the batteries.

 

[16ACE27]

Been RVing for 30 years, still learning things…!

The batteries in question are four years old, which is one of the reasons I leapt into an appointment to have them replaced. The last pair I had lasted four years so it seemed logical (especially given that I had a 6V reading when I tested them). As I understand it, once flooded lead acid batteries have discharged that deeply, there’s no redeeming them.

So I should keep the “use/store” switch on “use” all winter long, while the coach is plugged in to shore power? The house batteries are stuffed into a very compact area and would be a royal pain to physically remove, as some people say you should do in the winter. We live in a temperate region where the freeze never lasts terribly long or gets super cold, so I haven’t worried much about that aspect of winter storage.

What Beau said is good. Bottom line:

Keep the USE/STORE switch in USE at all times unless storing for more than a few days WITHOUT SP connected.