Thor Aria Design Malpractice?

That is good assumption, a wild stab would be if you said 500' shorter...

We had a 29' boat that we had out of water 2 months waiting for some service ( no it was not a TMC Dealer) but when they finally finished and put the boat back in the water it was leaking at the transom. Turns out the water was seeping at the steering pin. It was a $20 part so I was pretty happy, then they told me they had to lift the engine to get to it :banghead: it was a $3,000 job. Never crossed my mind to find a Chaparral forum and take them to task. That seal had shriveled up dry with the heat being out of the water. When they put back in the water it never had a chance to seal. For a while I was a $30 bilge pump from a sunken boat.

I am sure someone at TMC was fired for this. They should offer complimentary modification for any 3401 owner upon request. Not a good look for TMC, people wil never forget that type of issue.

Nah, they probably got a promotion...I've seen some pretty dense headed engineers in my line of work.
 
Can you loosen or remove the mounting bolts then using a jack raise the generator far enough to remove the oil filter cover plate?

When raised mark the location of the hidden bolt and then drill a hole in the mounting brace so the bolt can be accessed in the future.
I'm not sure even that would work. While I could drill that hole and remove the screws, it doesn't appear there's enough space to get the squeeze latch to clear the access panel frame because of how the angle iron and the cross member are situated. The other challenge is that there doesn't appear to be enough room to get a filter in or out, even if I could get the panel open or off.

I'm going to try to remove the front cover of the generator and try to change the filter that way. The Cummins technician with whom I spoke on the phone, who was very helpful, thought that might work.
 
My understanding is changing the oil (e.g. draining it) is not the issue. I can see the drain port clearly in the picture. It's changing the oil filter that has been blocked.

Which model generator is that, anyway? Our ACE has a Cummins-Onan RV QG 4000. It doesn't have a filter.

And so we can all stop standing on our heads, here's the picture flipped downside down.
It's an Onan 8000, model 8HDKAK.

You're right. Changing the OIL is not an issue. It's getting access to the oil filter that's the challenge. (Later, it will be getting access to the fuel filter.)
 
Here's a better image taken directly under the generator at the end where the access panel is located.
 

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Perhaps visit a welding shop and ask if they could redesign the support structure. Pity it has to be done - Thor obviously didn't think this through - but you'll get nowhere fussing at Thor. Get it done right and your blood pressure won't suffer.
 
Here's a better image taken directly under the generator at the end where the access panel is located.

Based on this picture and what you stated TMC said of " that owner maintenance is not their issue or a recommendation to unbolt the generator, disconnect the exhaust, and (somehow) jack up the generator in order to open the access cover to change the filter." if true, it would be the 1st time in 6 years that I can say I honestly disagree with TMC.

Not that I doubt what you saying, but I find that very hard to be official position of TMC.

I could argue it is warranty claim because your coach is not reasonable functionable as it's intended use. I would send a certified letter to TMC to explain. If they halfway try to say it is maintenance; then ask them to show you that procedure in their manual.

But again, as I told you earlier, if I had that issue, I could call my Mobile RV Tech and he would have a permanent structured solution in about 1 hour and $200. You got a brand new 2024; you send that receipt along with the before & after pictures. Make certain you get lots of pictures and quality videos of the issue before you have it fixed. You do all of the above, your issue will be fixed, but if it is not resolved in 2 weeks with TMC, send me a PM.
 
Lets boil this down:

IF the filter can't be removed from the side as IS NOT tested(and making all of this just so many words about a problem that isn't a problem).

SINCE Thor has no comment other than any manufacturer would about an access that doesn't live up to a consumer wish.

WHEN we find out the filter can't be removed from the side

IF the OP doesn't need a new hobby based on riteous indignation

THEN the op can have it cut and chromed and half turn keeper bolts installed, and all possible pleasures.

THEN he will post the repair here as a contributing member using 8x10 color glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one(but justice was blind) and he will have accomplished something we will all have a deep sincere respect for: the mod being documented for others as a gift to society from a societal member.

THEN, move on.

Some battles are not battles to those being battled. No one cares on any official end.

No one at the Thor cared that my rotomolded bins wouldn't hold 1,000lbs...and now they hold 1,000lbs. I did that for me, by me.

We all do this for us by us to almost anything in our lives, rv's being no exception.

Try the filter removal suggested.
Move on to either some sort of apology to thor due to there being a known alternative
Or
Modify to your deepest wishes by manipulation of either the task involved or the thoughts involved.

I modified.
Everyone does.
 
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Some battles are not battles to those being battled. No one cares on any official end.

No one at the Thor cared that my rotomolded bins wouldn't hold 1,000lbs...and now they hold 1,000lbs. I did that for me, by me.

I modified.
Everyone does.

I modified too, dumb engineering by Ford, Winnebago, I don't know... but saved me trips to Dearborn, MI and Forest City, Iowa. I am good now :popcorn:
 

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Of course you modified. And if that mod didn't work you'd have worked the work over until it did work.
That's a realistic and imagination driven cure based on life knowledge of ladders and gravity and hose EXTRAPOLATED THEN AMALGAMATED into a cure.


https://www.amazon.com/PLUMIA-Extra...201788&sprefix=oil+change+pump,aps,191&sr=8-3

And for some folks
If Thor included the linked item with every vehicle
The folks would complain about how the red didn't match the sheets their dsughter gifted them
and how thor
Should have considered sheet selection as an inalienable right.

The generator strap is stupid.
Fix the stupid instead of 'educating' thor.
 
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Just curious. Does Onan have mounting instructions? Seems like they would have specifications on “lift points“, support areas, etc. Did TMC violate those instructions by covering up the access plate?
 
I'm not sure even that would work. While I could drill that hole and remove the screws, it doesn't appear there's enough space to get the squeeze latch to clear the access panel frame because of how the angle iron and the cross member are situated. The other challenge is that there doesn't appear to be enough room to get a filter in or out, even if I could get the panel open or off.

I'm going to try to remove the front cover of the generator and try to change the filter that way. The Cummins technician with whom I spoke on the phone, who was very helpful, thought that might work.

I have the same panel on my generator to access the oil filter, when open there is plenty of room to R&R the filter.
 
Just curious. Does Onan have mounting instructions? Seems like they would have specifications on “lift points“, support areas, etc. Did TMC violate those instructions by covering up the access plate?

Yes Onan has Installation manuals. Google is your friend. Search by generator model number. Entegra included an Onan CD with my rig that included all the manuals for my QD 8000. Thor included the manual in the black bag when we bought the Challenger a few years ago.

What model is your generator?
 
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Thor Lcaking True Customer Service!

We purchased a 2024 Thor Aria 3401 at the end of February. It's about time for the generator break-in oil change. However, there is a piece of angle iron that is bolted in place preventing anyone from opening the cover on the generator that provides access to the oil filter.
So far, dealer and our outreach to Thor has generated notes back saying that owner maintenance is not their issue or a recommendation to unbolt the generator, disconnect the exhaust, and (somehow) jack up the generator in order to open the access cover to change the filter.
We're working to talk with someone responsible from Thor to understand if this is design malpractice or ours was assembled incorrectly.
(Attached photo is inverted, but you can see the access panel covered by the angle iron that is bolted to the generator and supporting its weight.)
Anyone face similar issues?

We have a 2023 Aria 3401 w/a Onan 8000 Diesel generator. After reading this complete thread I went to check our installation. Our MH does NOT have any cross bracing/brackets under the generator. It is clear access to the bottom and the recess for the oil filter. Something changed between the years.

BUT I can relate to the actual support you receive from Thor when there is a manufacturing design problem cause an operational issue. It is no where near world class. Rather than hijack this thread, I'll post another thread about the problems we face when they put the coach on the frame and did not connect the fuel filler tubes properly for the filler location.
 
I've generally found that the people in customer service at Thor are pretty decent to work with. Quite often though, I don't think that they have any support from engineering or management and are required to pass on the the official company response rather than provide a decent answer. I have written to the President of Thor about an issue that drug on for nearly a year before anything useful came out of it and never even received the courtesy of a reply. Unfortunately, many of the people at General are not any better. I've found that the best information usually comes from the Thor Forums. You really have some good people giving advice on the Forum.
 
We have a 2023 Aria 3401 w/a Onan 8000 Diesel generator. After reading this complete thread I went to check our installation. Our MH does NOT have any cross bracing/brackets under the generator. It is clear access to the bottom and the recess for the oil filter. Something changed between the years.

Can you post a photo of the underside where your generator is mounted? This could give the OP (Original Poster) an idea of how the mounting brackets could be modified.
 
Joe-

I'm sorry to have waited so long to respond. I wanted to wait until I'd heard from Thor, again, and talked to Cummins.

My strong recommendation to you is to ask the dealer how to solve the generator oil change challenge before you purchase. (For your sake, I'm hoping that mine is somehow a one-off error.) You may want the selling dealer to certify what they'll charge you for routine maintenance.

Here's the bottom line:
1. We like the layout and design of the Aria 3401.
2. The significant design flaw and Thor's unwillingness to address it would have kept me from purchasing this model of RV.

Details.

The design flaw.
We took this to a General RV dealer (we purchased the unit from another General RV dealer) nearest our home for warranty work (see below) and asked that they change the generator oil and filter as our generator was within about 10 hours of the break-in oil change. The shop foreman was surprised by the fact that his team couldn't access the oil filter access panel on the generator. He tried to work this with Thor's inappropriately titled "Customer Service" personnel.

>After describing the issue, he received from Brittany Braun on Thursday, May 30, 2024 4:53 PM, an email saying, "Unfortunately, the best way to service that filter on that unit is by un-bolting the generator and raising it with a jack an inch or two to get to that plate. You should also be able to slide the generator front to back a few inches if you disconnect the exhaust pipe."

(This is, in fact, unfortunate, since there isn't an inch or two of clearance at the top of the generator. It's equally unfortunate that the generator isn't on a slide, so moving it back a few inches is non-trivial.)

>The foreman wrote back the same day, asking "...will Thor cover this as a manufacturer defect?" The reply came from Brittany Braun on Friday, May 31, 2024 2:41 PM, stating that, "TMC’s warranty does not cover owner maintenance."

>I contacted Thor directly about the issue through their web site. On June 14, 2024, 9:34 AM, Kyle Prater wrote me back. He said, "Unfortunately, we will not have information on the chassis oil filer. Please contact Freightliner at 800-385-4357 for further assistance."
"As for the generator, we cannot advise on replacing the oil filter. Please contact Onan at 800-286-6467 for further assistance."

>I sent a note back to Kyle that said, in part:

Thanks for your note, but it's not really helpful.

The issue is how Thor built the unit, not Onan's clear instructions on how to access and change the oil filter.* Thor built this Aria 3401--for Thor's sake, hopefully not all Aria 3401s--such that*owners cannot perform routine maintenance*without disassembling and modifying various elements of the RV.* (See the attached picture.)

I think one of three things is true:

1. This particular unit was built incorrectly
2. Thor knew constructing 3401s this way prevents routine maintenance and developed work around that should be provided to owners
3. This is design malpractice and Thor either negligently or willfully constructs and sells motorhomes that cannot function as intended and advertised

If #1 is true, I'd like to discuss how Thor will remedy this.

If #2 is true, I need to know the work around you have developed.

If #3 is true, I suggest that someone in authority at Thor work with me to discuss a remedy and that you redesign the bracket that is causing this issue.* (I can offer some approaches for you to consider.)

>Kyle Prater resonded on June 24, 2024, 1:30 PM, stating, "As I stated in my last email, per Onan’s instructions and due to liability, we cannot advise you on the process to replace the oil filter on the Generator. We advise taking your coach to an Onan authorized service facility, a Thor Motor Coach authorized service facility, or contacting Onan directly at 800-286-6467."

>I placed a post on Twitter/X with a short description of the issue and including @ThorMotorCoach. Cody Smith responded July 1, 2024, 8:31 AM, saying, "The angled metal piece would need to be removed in order to complete the oil change. If you are unable to remove that piece then my only other suggestion would be to have your local Onan dealership complete the oil change for you." (To Cody's credit, he said he'd tried to call me.)

I should note that all of these emails came above the taglines:

Thor Motor Coach Will Produce the Highest Quality Recreational Vehicles.

NOBODY Will Build Them Better.

>When I discussed this with the Cummins authorized service center nearest me, the person with whom I spoke said that the access panel on the bottom of the generator is the only way he knows of to change the oil filter.

>As opposed to Thor's approach to customer service, Cummins was very helpful. I was able to get Andrew, a Cummins generator technician, on the phone today and described the problem. After stating that he was incredulous that someone would design and build an RV this way, we discussed approaches. He looked at technical drawings he had and stated that the bottom access panel was the appropriate method to change the filter. However, he said that I MIGHT be able to remove the front cover (he said that would be tricky with the generator mounted in the RV) and access the filter that way. He assured me doing this would not void the warranty. I'll take a shot at this later this week and let you know if it works.

I deliberately list all this before addressing your question about the RV overall as this is a significant design flaw, not indicative that Thor Motor Coach Will Produce the Highest Quality Recreational Vehicles nor that NOBODY Will Build Them Better, and a rather transparent attempt to avoid taking any responsibility.

OK,...
Layout and Other Aspects of Design.

Again, we like the design and layout of the 3401. We travel with just two of us and the 3401 meets most of our needs and wants. This is one of the shortest diesel pushers we saw. That shorter length only has a few drawbacks, from our perspective.

The design drawbacks we've found and knowingly accepted are:
>Limited counter space. Other models use different approaches to provide more counter space, with pullout cabinets that offer some additional counter space or flip up counters. I may add a small amount of counter space with a bracket I install.
>Bathroom that is average sized. We previously owned a travel trailer with a rear bath. This gave us a "two butt" bathroom that we appreciated. The 3401's bath is fine; it's just a bit smaller than we had.
>You get tremendous living space with the opposing slides. You give up space while the unit is driving. You can get into the fridge and freezer, although you want things you need to access on the road at the front of the shelves. You can get into the bath. You can get into the bedroom, but just barely and not while carrying much. You won't have true access to any of the drawers in the bedroom.
>There's only one space underneath the unit that provides significant storage. (There's another under-unit bay that has space that's about 2 feet deep.) All-in-all, it has the storage we need underneath, but don't plan to put bikes or other things in that storage space beyond what I'd consider "standard" things carried with an RV.
>Not surprisingly, we have to run the front A/C unit at a low setting and the dash fans when driving in hot weather. This puts hours on the generator, but makes the cab comfortable.

We discovered that our Aqua Hot version (250D) will only either heat water or heat the cab at one time. This isn't that big a deal, but it did surprise us. (We purchased a small fan that offers electric heat. That and the installed heating has worked for us down to about 20 degree F.)
Issues We Had and You May Want to Check.

Here are the issues we found in our first four months:
>The toilet was mounted offset by about 1/4 inch from the black tank connection. The selling dealer resolved this by moving the toilet to where it mounted correctly, dealing the PVC, and lining the base of the toilet with caulk.
>Three of the metal roller plates you'll find on the bottom of the wall slide have begun to come disconnected from the slide. It appears that the screws were either incorrectly inserted or pulled out from their insertion point.
>Our cab heater and car A/C don't offer heat or cool. Our servicing dealer told us that's a chassis issue, so we've got an appointment with a Freightliner dealer near us this week to assess the issue. I'm hoping that Freightliner and Thor don't each point at the other on this one. We'll see.
>The windshield seal began to come unmounted at one corner.
>Our fresh and gray tank sensors didn't function.
>The AquaHot has malfunctioned twice during freezing weather. It only required a reset to resolve, but when that happens in the middle of the night, you figure it out when you wake up COLD. (The heat pump works down to about 40 degrees F, so you only need the AH heating when you're out in pretty frigid temps.)
>The wall slide cover collects water whenever it rains, so ensure you give that water a chance to drain so that the slide cover isn't caught between the slide and frame when you bring in that slide.
>The screen on the kitchen vent was torn when we took delivery.
>The bedroom TV had a vertical black line when we took delivery.
>The outside TV is not a smart TV like the ones inside the unit. Ours doesn't connect to the antenna, either. We bought a Roku device to address this and it works fine.
>Our generator controls in the cab and at the control panel aren't working. I think it's a connection bracket, but haven't been able to resolve it, yet.
>The microphone for our hands free phone connection was not connected to the system. That was a simple fix, but a disappointing indication of inspection. You won't want to use it while driving as it's way too far from the driver or passenger and the vents generally blow air across it. I may reposition it after the warranty period, but have no issues using a headset now.
>There was a large area where the fresh water drain exits the outside water hookup bay that caused that bay to fill with a few inches of water when driving in the rain. The dealer fixed that with some spray foam under warranty.
>We found out by accident (fortunately, at about Day 85 of ownership) that the first 90 days of ownership offer expedited "adjustments." Apparently, that means the servicing dealer has fewer requirements to seek authorization for warranty work during that period. Keep that in mind.

Other Things, Mostly Good.

The Freightliner chassis (with the exception of cab heating and A/C) works great. A friend who's spent a career working as an executive in the trucking industry told me the tires are 100k+ mile articles and the drive train and chassis are 1 mil mile.

The passenger and driver seats are great. Both swivel and the passenger seat has a foot rest. These allow you to have a conversation with up to about six people in the living area.

The seat height at the dinnette is low and makes you feel like you're back in 3rd grade. We added a cushion and that resolves the issue easily.

We'd had a few people sleep above the driver and passenger seat in the drop down bed. The feedback is mixed. (We added a topper that seems to help.)

We've not had anyone sleep on the dinnette. Thor provides some nice cushions to that as a bed, but they are sized such that storing them is a bit of a pain.

The lighting and their controls are great. They have placed remotes for the lights all over the living areas. You also have generator start in the bedroom and water pump on/off in the bathroom and outside at the water hookup.

The convection oven and induction stove are good. You'll need the right kind of pans for the stove, but it's worth it. We had a few issues getting an F3 error on one burner, but that's apparently just an overheating warning because of the pan we were using. The convection microwave is a lot better than the propane ovens we've had on other RVs, but keep in mind that there's still a preheat time when using the convection function.

Let me know if you'd like me to send you anything direct.



Thank you Rakkasan for the verbose response! SUPER helpful detail and great information; especially the note about the 90-day period.

Ok... so, I looked at the 2024 3401 chassis and generator setup and it looks like they messed up the design in the same way. It's not just your RV build that was messed up. I brought this issue to the attention of my dealer's head mechanic to take a look and while he was surprised, he replied in the same breath that he would modify the bracket as part of PDI and make sure that accessing the Onan panel would not be a problem (no additional charge). I have not taken delivery of the RV and won't until this is resolved. The head mech at my dealer was super confident he could modify the bracket that is blocking access and I have high confidence in him based the multiple conversations we have had. You can be sure that I will be checking this first thing when I visit them this week. My "delivery date" is Wed of this week and if all the items found by my private inspector have been addressed, and this blocked panel issue is resolved, then we will be taking it home this week.

I will take pictures and report back to let you know exactly how it goes and what was done so you can choose to resolve the issue in the same way.

Thanks again - Joe
 
Tried Removing Front Cover, But Bolt Access is Really Difficult

Unfortunately, there are more bolts holding the generator front cover on than I thought. The ones higher in the compartment were in spaces I couldn't reach with my tools.

I've reached out to the service department at my selling dealer, General RV in Huntley, IL. Their management was very impressive immediately after we took delivery and identified PDI problems. I'm hopeful they will remain impressive.

I'm sending a letter to Thor President. Depending on dealer response, I'll follow with one to General RV execs. Working Indiana Consumer Protection and Federal Trade Commission actions. Depending on General RV response, I'll reach out to Illinois Consumer Protection. I'll have to modify myself soon, so will update the team on how we do that...and keep a copy of the bill.

Frustrating experience, particularly given my otherwise generally positive view of this model.

Thanks for all the insights and assistance.
 
What our 2023 Aria 3401 looks like from underneath

This appears to have a clear shot to the filter and drain. A change was definitely done between 2023 and 2024 model years
 

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This appears to have a clear shot to the filter and drain. A change was definitely done between 2023 and 2024 model years

Ahh!!! Great picture. I thought the filter was behind that white plate. I went back to look at OPs picture and I believe I could get that filter off as is.

I think when OP said Access Panel, that is why I was thinking the white panel had to removed, I didn't see the filter on the other side recessed.

If nothing else, assuming the filter will not twist off by hand, a ratchet tool could be used to get off. When putting back I would just oil the seal and hand tighten not too hard. It will seal with the heat. I was looking at the wrong side. I still may be missing something, but it does not look as bad as I was thinking. It could be better no doubt. Where my oil filter is right now on my F-53 required me to make my own tool to catch the filter and oil when it falls, plus I had to buy a Fumoto valve because engine oil draining would hit the axle and splatter everywhere.
 
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