Thor Aria Design Malpractice?

[m1noel]

Ahh!!! Great picture. I thought the filter was behind that white plate. I went back to look at OPs picture and I believe I could get that filter off as is.

I think when OP said Access Panel, that is why I was thinking the white panel had to removed, I didn't see the filter on the other side recessed.

If nothing else, assuming the filter will not twist off by hand, a ratchet tool could be used to get off. When putting back I would just oil the seal and hand tighten not too hard. It will seal with the heat. I was looking at the wrong side. I still may be missing something, but it does not look as bad as I was thinking. It could be better no doubt. Where my oil filter is right now on my F-53 required me to make my own tool to catch the filter and oil when it falls, plus I had to buy a Fumoto valve because engine oil draining would hit the axle and splatter everywhere.

I see what you are looking at, but it's not the oil filter. I think it may be part of the exhaust. The filter is behind the white panel.

 

[ducksface]

I see what you are looking at, but it's not the oil filter. I think it may be part of the exhaust. The filter is behind the white panel.

I truly hate to ask, but since someone in another thread said she had been under the front of her rv numerous times and she thoroughly searched, finding she ABSOLUTELY did not have front shocks or even a place to mount them;

How do we know the filter is under that panel?

I ask only because of previous unrelated adamancy gone wrong.

(She, of course, indeed has front shocks)

Sorry, had to ask.
You have a manual and most of us do not.

 

[ghnl]

How do we know the filter is under that panel?

FF to about the 6:20 mark.

 

[ducksface]

Thanks.
I looked at the shown time.
I'm thinking up a solution for the op.

But,
We need about TOO MANY pictures from the op and some measurements.
I think I can whip up(so far my thoughts on this)a fishplate scab hinge that'll take a literal moment to open and close.

 

[16ACE27]

FF to about the 6:20 mark.

That video puts great visual context into the stupidity of Thor's installation.

 

[dkoldman]

FF to about the 6:20 mark.

Damn man, ya think he tightened that oil filter good enough :nonono:

That is why I don't like paying to have my oil changed, if I decide to do later I catch hell trying to get it off. I tighten firm but only with hand. I never have issue with oil filter removal or leaks.

@Duck,
I will have to check to see if my rig has front shocks

 

[m1noel]

I truly hate to ask, but since someone in another thread said she had been under the front of her rv numerous times and she thoroughly searched, finding she ABSOLUTELY did not have front shocks or even a place to mount them;

How do we know the filter is under that panel?

I ask only because of previous unrelated adamancy gone wrong.

(She, of course, indeed has front shocks)

Sorry, had to ask.
You have a manual and most of us do not.

We have the same Genset and I have changed the filters every year since new. Thats the only way I know. The video is a great tool though. I also realize that my 3901 is longer, but I believe it's only longer behind the front seats. I do not understand why they changed the genset mounts so stupidly. I have not heard of the older style losing a generator on the road.

 

[joe@theporters.net]

Hello. Following back up. My dealer fixed the panel access issue by 1) Raising up the generator and putting several washers underneath and then 2) Drilled a hole to access the screw. He was able to get to the filter without issues.

 

[ghnl]

Watching the video it looked like the screws are attached to a hinge with a latch at the other end. By removing the screws are you able to maneuver the cover out of the way?

 

[ducksface]

Thanks for the follow up.
It's amazing what a quick glance could have done to quash a loud noise.

The OP might sue his shop foreman and team for incompetence.

 

[ducksface]

"The shop foreman was surprised by the fact that his team couldn't access the oil filter access panel on the generator."
CLOWNS
Vs
"My dealer fixed the panel access"
REGULAR OL' RUN-OF-THE-MILL TYPE GUYS.

By post #6 I'd figured out the "shop foreman" and the OP.

 

[dkoldman]

Hello. Following back up. My dealer fixed the panel access issue by 1) Raising up the generator and putting several washers underneath and then 2) Drilled a hole to access the screw. He was able to get to the filter without issues.

Ah man what a buzz kill during my happy hour, I knocked over my beer reading this.

If you don't mind, I am gonna wait to see what happens from the OP's letter to Thor's President. Really liked the moxy bypassing of President of TMC. Also we need to hear from the General RV execs, the Indiana Consumer Protection, the Federal Trade Commission and possibly the Illinois Consumer Protection.

Based on what you described, my mobile tech would not have even charged me $200. We would have argued a few minutes on his refusal to take my $200, and then I would have said, can you go check my roof... my wife said she saw a leak by shower light, he would have gone up and came back down and said nope, everything is fine up there; and I would have said here is the $200 for checking :coolsmiley:

 

[jbuche]

I sent a certified letter to the president of Thor Motor Coach that indicated I believed his customer service team was exposing his firm to liability he might not find appropriate and that, based on responses to date, I was pursuing reports to state and federal agencies and considering other actions. The senior management of the dealer that sold us the RV also reached back out to us after the salesman with whom we worked referred the issue to them.

About a week after the letter to the president of TMC was received and the operations manager at the Huntley General RV reached out to the head of Thor's customer service, I received a call and a couple of emails from one of Thor's customer service personnel with a dramatically different tone. He said that their engineering team would now address this issue and asked if I could bring the RV to their facility or if he could arrange for someone to drive it there for us. We have an appointment at their Elkhart, IN, engineering facility on Monday morning. I'll post something about the results.

Hats off to the team at General RV in Huntley, IN, for elevating this issue and to Thor management for deciding to act.

 

[Scubawise]

I sent a certified letter to the president of Thor Motor Coach that indicated I believed his customer service team was exposing his firm to liability he might not find appropriate and that, based on responses to date, I was pursuing reports to state and federal agencies and considering other actions. The senior management of the dealer that sold us the RV also reached back out to us after the salesman with whom we worked referred the issue to them.

About a week after the letter to the president of TMC was received and the operations manager at the Huntley General RV reached out to the head of Thor's customer service, I received a call and a couple of emails from one of Thor's customer service personnel with a dramatically different tone. He said that their engineering team would now address this issue and asked if I could bring the RV to their facility or if he could arrange for someone to drive it there for us. We have an appointment at their Elkhart, IN, engineering facility on Monday morning. I'll post something about the results.

Hats off to the team at General RV in Huntley, IN, for elevating this issue and to Thor management for deciding to act.

Are they picking of delivery costs?

 

[jbuche]

Rather fortunately, we had been scheduled to pass a few miles north of Elkhart this weekend. We'll spend one extra day on the trip. (...and while there, I'll point out a few other things that are warranty issues and see if they will address those while we're there instead of having to schedule with a dealer.)

 

[jbuche]

My wife and I arrived at the Thor Engineering Building yesterday morning with our 2024 Thor Aria 3401 at our appointed time and were met immediately by Larry and Shane. Larry informed me that they had designed a new frame for the generator and would apply that new frame within about three hours.

About two hours later, Larry called and said they were complete. When we arrived back at the facility, he invited me to look at the fix they had applied. They had cut off the bottom of the frame that came with the RV and used sleeves and bolts to attach the new piece to the portion of the frame they had not removed. (See image.) The fix they applied provides free access to the panel that enables one to change the oil filter without the need to disconnect the screws connecting the hinge.

While looking at the fix they had applied, I asked how the fix they applied had come to pass. I recounted my engagements with Thor’s customer service and mentioned the letter I had sent to the TMC CEO. One individual responded saying, "I have seen that letter!" We were told the 2024 design change was required by other elements they had changed in the 2024 model and was clearly a mistake. We asked if this fix would be applied to all 2024 Aria 3401s and we understood that that is Thor's plan.

Thanks to the Thor management for recognizing this issue and directing that a remedy be designed and applied at no cost.

Recommend that anyone else out there with a 2024 Thor Aria 3401 contact Thor and consider whether to get this fix applied.

 

[joe@theporters.net]

Great service prevails

Thanks for the follow up post and very pleased to see that Thor addressed the design flaw. I just wish I lived closer to a factory. It’s not feasible to drive from Seattle to Indiana for me anytime soon. I will see if my dealer can implement the same if Thor is willing to share the design change procedure. If you can private message me contact information at Thor, that would be super helpful.

Thanks Joe!

 

[dkoldman]

Really glad you followed up

I go pack to Post#27

Based on this picture and what you stated TMC said of " that owner maintenance is not their issue or a recommendation to unbolt the generator, disconnect the exhaust, and (somehow) jack up the generator in order to open the access cover to change the filter." if true, it would be the 1st time in 6 years that I can say I honestly disagree with TMC.

Not that I doubt what you saying, but I find that very hard to be official position of TMC.

I could argue it is warranty claim because your coach is not reasonable functionable as it's intended use. I would send a certified letter to TMC to explain. If they halfway try to say it is maintenance; then ask them to show you that procedure in their manual.​

My streak continues, despites the many complaints I read of TMC as a SOB, I have yet to see where they did not honor a warranty. There may be disagreements about what should or shouldn't be under warranty, but I insist you don't be #1 anything unless you are damn good at something.

 

[jbuche]

Thor's Technical Service Bulletin Re This Design Flaw

Here's how you can access the Thor's Technical Service Bulletin regarding this design flaw: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2024/MC-11007748-0001.pdf .

This outlines the fix that Thor applied to our RV and how others can be fixed.
(It looks like the pictures in the bulletin are our RV.)

Since we had the fix applied, we've put several thousand miles on our rig and have not noted any issues.

Note that it's for selected 2024 and 2025 Arias.

 

[HMCSW]

Joe-

I'm sorry to have waited so long to respond. I wanted to wait until I'd heard from Thor, again, and talked to Cummins.

My strong recommendation to you is to ask the dealer how to solve the generator oil change challenge before you purchase. (For your sake, I'm hoping that mine is somehow a one-off error.) You may want the selling dealer to certify what they'll charge you for routine maintenance.

Here's the bottom line:
1. We like the layout and design of the Aria 3401.
2. The significant design flaw and Thor's unwillingness to address it would have kept me from purchasing this model of RV.

Details.

The design flaw.
We took this to a General RV dealer (we purchased the unit from another General RV dealer) nearest our home for warranty work (see below) and asked that they change the generator oil and filter as our generator was within about 10 hours of the break-in oil change. The shop foreman was surprised by the fact that his team couldn't access the oil filter access panel on the generator. He tried to work this with Thor's inappropriately titled "Customer Service" personnel.

>After describing the issue, he received from Brittany Braun on Thursday, May 30, 2024 4:53 PM, an email saying, "Unfortunately, the best way to service that filter on that unit is by un-bolting the generator and raising it with a jack an inch or two to get to that plate. You should also be able to slide the generator front to back a few inches if you disconnect the exhaust pipe."

(This is, in fact, unfortunate, since there isn't an inch or two of clearance at the top of the generator. It's equally unfortunate that the generator isn't on a slide, so moving it back a few inches is non-trivial.)

>The foreman wrote back the same day, asking "...will Thor cover this as a manufacturer defect?" The reply came from Brittany Braun on Friday, May 31, 2024 2:41 PM, stating that, "TMC’s warranty does not cover owner maintenance."

>I contacted Thor directly about the issue through their web site. On June 14, 2024, 9:34 AM, Kyle Prater wrote me back. He said, "Unfortunately, we will not have information on the chassis oil filer. Please contact Freightliner at 800-385-4357 for further assistance."
"As for the generator, we cannot advise on replacing the oil filter. Please contact Onan at 800-286-6467 for further assistance."

>I sent a note back to Kyle that said, in part:

Thanks for your note, but it's not really helpful.

The issue is how Thor built the unit, not Onan's clear instructions on how to access and change the oil filter.* Thor built this Aria 3401--for Thor's sake, hopefully not all Aria 3401s--such that*owners cannot perform routine maintenance*without disassembling and modifying various elements of the RV.* (See the attached picture.)

I think one of three things is true:

1. This particular unit was built incorrectly
2. Thor knew constructing 3401s this way prevents routine maintenance and developed work around that should be provided to owners
3. This is design malpractice and Thor either negligently or willfully constructs and sells motorhomes that cannot function as intended and advertised

If #1 is true, I'd like to discuss how Thor will remedy this.

If #2 is true, I need to know the work around you have developed.

If #3 is true, I suggest that someone in authority at Thor work with me to discuss a remedy and that you redesign the bracket that is causing this issue.* (I can offer some approaches for you to consider.)

>Kyle Prater resonded on June 24, 2024, 1:30 PM, stating, "As I stated in my last email, per Onan’s instructions and due to liability, we cannot advise you on the process to replace the oil filter on the Generator. We advise taking your coach to an Onan authorized service facility, a Thor Motor Coach authorized service facility, or contacting Onan directly at 800-286-6467."

>I placed a post on Twitter/X with a short description of the issue and including @ThorMotorCoach. Cody Smith responded July 1, 2024, 8:31 AM, saying, "The angled metal piece would need to be removed in order to complete the oil change. If you are unable to remove that piece then my only other suggestion would be to have your local Onan dealership complete the oil change for you." (To Cody's credit, he said he'd tried to call me.)

I should note that all of these emails came above the taglines:

Thor Motor Coach Will Produce the Highest Quality Recreational Vehicles.

NOBODY Will Build Them Better.

>When I discussed this with the Cummins authorized service center nearest me, the person with whom I spoke said that the access panel on the bottom of the generator is the only way he knows of to change the oil filter.

>As opposed to Thor's approach to customer service, Cummins was very helpful. I was able to get Andrew, a Cummins generator technician, on the phone today and described the problem. After stating that he was incredulous that someone would design and build an RV this way, we discussed approaches. He looked at technical drawings he had and stated that the bottom access panel was the appropriate method to change the filter. However, he said that I MIGHT be able to remove the front cover (he said that would be tricky with the generator mounted in the RV) and access the filter that way. He assured me doing this would not void the warranty. I'll take a shot at this later this week and let you know if it works.

I deliberately list all this before addressing your question about the RV overall as this is a significant design flaw, not indicative that Thor Motor Coach Will Produce the Highest Quality Recreational Vehicles nor that NOBODY Will Build Them Better, and a rather transparent attempt to avoid taking any responsibility.

OK,...
Layout and Other Aspects of Design.

Again, we like the design and layout of the 3401. We travel with just two of us and the 3401 meets most of our needs and wants. This is one of the shortest diesel pushers we saw. That shorter length only has a few drawbacks, from our perspective.

The design drawbacks we've found and knowingly accepted are:
>Limited counter space. Other models use different approaches to provide more counter space, with pullout cabinets that offer some additional counter space or flip up counters. I may add a small amount of counter space with a bracket I install.
>Bathroom that is average sized. We previously owned a travel trailer with a rear bath. This gave us a "two butt" bathroom that we appreciated. The 3401's bath is fine; it's just a bit smaller than we had.
>You get tremendous living space with the opposing slides. You give up space while the unit is driving. You can get into the fridge and freezer, although you want things you need to access on the road at the front of the shelves. You can get into the bath. You can get into the bedroom, but just barely and not while carrying much. You won't have true access to any of the drawers in the bedroom.
>There's only one space underneath the unit that provides significant storage. (There's another under-unit bay that has space that's about 2 feet deep.) All-in-all, it has the storage we need underneath, but don't plan to put bikes or other things in that storage space beyond what I'd consider "standard" things carried with an RV.
>Not surprisingly, we have to run the front A/C unit at a low setting and the dash fans when driving in hot weather. This puts hours on the generator, but makes the cab comfortable.

We discovered that our Aqua Hot version (250D) will only either heat water or heat the cab at one time. This isn't that big a deal, but it did surprise us. (We purchased a small fan that offers electric heat. That and the installed heating has worked for us down to about 20 degree F.)
Issues We Had and You May Want to Check.

Here are the issues we found in our first four months:
>The toilet was mounted offset by about 1/4 inch from the black tank connection. The selling dealer resolved this by moving the toilet to where it mounted correctly, dealing the PVC, and lining the base of the toilet with caulk.
>Three of the metal roller plates you'll find on the bottom of the wall slide have begun to come disconnected from the slide. It appears that the screws were either incorrectly inserted or pulled out from their insertion point.
>Our cab heater and car A/C don't offer heat or cool. Our servicing dealer told us that's a chassis issue, so we've got an appointment with a Freightliner dealer near us this week to assess the issue. I'm hoping that Freightliner and Thor don't each point at the other on this one. We'll see.
>The windshield seal began to come unmounted at one corner.
>Our fresh and gray tank sensors didn't function.
>The AquaHot has malfunctioned twice during freezing weather. It only required a reset to resolve, but when that happens in the middle of the night, you figure it out when you wake up COLD. (The heat pump works down to about 40 degrees F, so you only need the AH heating when you're out in pretty frigid temps.)
>The wall slide cover collects water whenever it rains, so ensure you give that water a chance to drain so that the slide cover isn't caught between the slide and frame when you bring in that slide.
>The screen on the kitchen vent was torn when we took delivery.
>The bedroom TV had a vertical black line when we took delivery.
>The outside TV is not a smart TV like the ones inside the unit. Ours doesn't connect to the antenna, either. We bought a Roku device to address this and it works fine.
>Our generator controls in the cab and at the control panel aren't working. I think it's a connection bracket, but haven't been able to resolve it, yet.
>The microphone for our hands free phone connection was not connected to the system. That was a simple fix, but a disappointing indication of inspection. You won't want to use it while driving as it's way too far from the driver or passenger and the vents generally blow air across it. I may reposition it after the warranty period, but have no issues using a headset now.
>There was a large area where the fresh water drain exits the outside water hookup bay that caused that bay to fill with a few inches of water when driving in the rain. The dealer fixed that with some spray foam under warranty.
>We found out by accident (fortunately, at about Day 85 of ownership) that the first 90 days of ownership offer expedited "adjustments." Apparently, that means the servicing dealer has fewer requirements to seek authorization for warranty work during that period. Keep that in mind.

Other Things, Mostly Good.

The Freightliner chassis (with the exception of cab heating and A/C) works great. A friend who's spent a career working as an executive in the trucking industry told me the tires are 100k+ mile articles and the drive train and chassis are 1 mil mile.

The passenger and driver seats are great. Both swivel and the passenger seat has a foot rest. These allow you to have a conversation with up to about six people in the living area.

The seat height at the dinnette is low and makes you feel like you're back in 3rd grade. We added a cushion and that resolves the issue easily.

We'd had a few people sleep above the driver and passenger seat in the drop down bed. The feedback is mixed. (We added a topper that seems to help.)

We've not had anyone sleep on the dinnette. Thor provides some nice cushions to that as a bed, but they are sized such that storing them is a bit of a pain.

The lighting and their controls are great. They have placed remotes for the lights all over the living areas. You also have generator start in the bedroom and water pump on/off in the bathroom and outside at the water hookup.

The convection oven and induction stove are good. You'll need the right kind of pans for the stove, but it's worth it. We had a few issues getting an F3 error on one burner, but that's apparently just an overheating warning because of the pan we were using. The convection microwave is a lot better than the propane ovens we've had on other RVs, but keep in mind that there's still a preheat time when using the convection function.

Let me know if you'd like me to send you anything direct.

Make sure you take a look at the basement floors. Our 2021 are made from plywood and rotted. As it was not considered "structure" Thor would not fix it. They did send on good will material to fix one compartment but not the floors for the tanks or the passenger side compartment. Hopefully they hired new engineers.