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Old 11-03-2023, 11:53 PM   #1
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THOR #31222
Wink 2020 Thor Sequence 20L Lithium Upgrade

Has anyone replaced the house batteries in their 2020 Thor Sequence with lithium batteries? If so, was it a direct swap with no modifications needed, or was there other systems / parts that needed to be purchased & changed?

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Old 11-04-2023, 02:18 AM   #2
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THOR #30506
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Originally Posted by WeycoDave View Post
Has anyone replaced the house batteries in their 2020 Thor Sequence with lithium batteries? If so, was it a direct swap with no modifications needed, or was there other systems / parts that needed to be purchased & changed?
This was discussed heavily in another thread, but I can tell you I have a 2022 20L Tellaro, and reworked the whole thing, but I already had LFP batteries and was setup to move them up and upgrade to 600A.

If you have the AGM/ Generator setup, you may need to change the inverter/converter to a lithium compatible one.

Where are the batteries now and what are they?
How many amps are they?
What is your watt usage? (add up devices that you use)

What inverter do you have?
What is the solar controller and can it be st for lithium batteries?

As DavidEM says, the BIM will likely need to be changed to a Li-BIM.
Lithium batteries charge at 14.6V instead of 13.6V, so that BIM will need to be changed, along with other devices most likely.

Aside from that- can use most of the existing system as long as you keep the watt usage the same, as long as you have a 3000W inverter. Otherwise, you will have to make some changes.
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Old 11-04-2023, 02:19 AM   #3
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THOR #20289
You will probably need to change out your converter/charger to a Li compatible one and replace whatever battery management system you have with a Precision Circuits Li BIM 225.

The former charges Li batteries better and the latter protects your chassis alternator from too much load.

David
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Old 11-04-2023, 06:02 AM   #4
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Thank you so much for the information, I truly appreciate it.
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Old 11-04-2023, 04:50 PM   #5
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THOR #30506
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Originally Posted by WeycoDave View Post
Thank you so much for the information, I truly appreciate it.
Most welcome-
I forgot I had a 2022 20AT, which was probably setup like yours-

1000W inverter, BIM, and AGM batteries w/ generator, so if that is the case, you have your work cut out for you.

I'd recommend a Victron 12V/120V/3000W inverter/converter,

li-BIM 225,
2/0 AWG cable in between all
250A breaker/fuse on B+ battery lead
Probably new solar controller if yours cannot be set for lithium
Add breakers to solar charge controller on B+ and PV+ feeds to the controller to be able to shut down when working on the system. I used 30A Blue sea breakers for that.

If you really want to make it easier to maintain, PM me for my pdf about how I moved (and upgraded to 600Ah, 2x300A) my batteries up from below and rewired it all, losing about 60# in excess wire, battery cages, etc.

Much tidier and I have 600Ah of power now, or 7200Wh of power. I can run my roof AC for 7 hrs on low cool, not enough, so now I am looking at upgrading the roof AC to a Mabru 12VDC unit, and reportedly can run off batteries for 4+/- days, and not use inverter to operate- ties directly into the buss bars. Not cheap, but I want to be as independent as possible with this rig, from having to use shoreline power.

I also have the Under hood generator, but that would be too much for you I fear.

I decided to sell the 20AT and get a 2022 20L and rebuild using the stuff TMC installed. I knew they would not do a good job, so rather than spend $200k for what I wanted, I spent $120k and did all my own work.

If you hire all this out, could be $5-10k to do all that, another $5k for the Mabru 12V AC unit and other work.
So you have to decide to move ahead, or sell and start from scratch with a bare bones custom, or Coachmen that is set up like that already. Nothing is gonna be cheap.

When the roof AC goes on, I will insulate the roof at the same time. The Thor class B's are not insulated- at least not to what I would call "insulation"- they just stand back and toss a scrap of fibreglass at the wall, then install the cabinets. I've been replacing glass with Havelock wool when I do anything inside. Hard to get the upper walls behind the wall cabs w/o taking them and the rubber wall down. Many places are impossible, like behind the rear bath. Can't use spray foam b/c it will cause the skin to buckle.
Images turned sideways courtesy of this site...

I need a time machine so I can go back to age 40 and start with a raw van...

Good luck!!
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Old 11-04-2023, 05:25 PM   #6
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Thank you for all of the detail Mark. You had quite a project going on, youíve done a tremendous amount of work.

Iím not looking to run all of my RVís systems off of just lithium batteries. I have 2 AGM batteries (100 amp?) that are mounted under the RV that are getting old / need replacing, so I thought I would just replace them with like size lithium if it was going to be easy. I still plan on using my generator when necessary. My solar controller has a lithium setting but did not know if other components would allow a seamless lithium replacement. If itís going to be a big job Iíll just use AGM again.

Take care

Dave
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Old 11-04-2023, 05:32 PM   #7
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THOR #30506
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Originally Posted by WeycoDave View Post
Thank you for all of the detail Mark. You had quite a project going on, you’ve done a tremendous amount of work.

I’m not looking to run all of my RV’s systems off of just lithium batteries. I have 2 AGM batteries (100 amp?) that are mounted under the RV that are getting old / need replacing, so I thought I would just replace them with like size lithium if it was going to be easy. I still plan on using my generator when necessary. My solar controller has a lithium setting but did not know if other components would allow a seamless lithium replacement. If it’s going to be a big job I’ll just use AGM again.

Take care

Dave
Thanks- took me 5 days to do that battery move.

You might just want to stay with the AGMs if you are happy using them- question I would have for lithium is whether the generator can charge them- so you might need to add a DCDC converter for the extra 1VDC needed for LFP over AGM.
You'd also need to know if the inverter is LFP compatible, and might not be. I remember discussing this with the FB group, and pretty sure the inverter had to be changed.

Def. not "seamless"

I didn't have my 20AT long enough to find that out- Hated the floor plan so we used it once, and sold and got the 20L. Much better for us.

At any rate- good luck with whatever you decide. I think I'd be inclined to stay with AGMs, but maybe add some more PV atop the rig. I added an expansion kit from GoPower and have 380W up there now. Helps keep the batteries up a little better.
If you replace those batteries, and DIY, you'll soon see why I decided to get them outta that spot. In VT, that is a bad place...
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Old 11-04-2023, 05:55 PM   #8
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Thanks for everything Mark. This is my first attempt to use a forum of any kind, so I appreciate your feedback & kindness.

Dave
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Old 11-04-2023, 06:09 PM   #9
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THOR #30506
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Originally Posted by WeycoDave View Post
Thanks for everything Mark. This is my first attempt to use a forum of any kind, so I appreciate your feedback & kindness.

Dave
Most welcome! Lots to learn!!

If I were in your shoes, I'd be looking in all spaces, access points to make sure plumbing and electrical are all good- make sure your electrical is all tight, and plumbing swivel fittings are not too tight! They should be hand tight and +1/4 turn.

But if you are 2nd owner, the prev. owner prob. did all that. But still good to know where everything is. Thor is notorious for loose electrical and overtight plumbing.

Many have had leaks from the swivels b/c TMC does not understand them.

I even heard someone mention that dealer said electrical should only be "hand-tight". Yikes!

I joined b/c my FB account got hacked and left the wannabe group last summer. What a PITA that was. Forum is nice alternative.
PM me for anything you might need. We can exchange emails from there.
I rebuilt a 2001 Rialta and reworked this 20L and not done yet!
I coulda been a custom class B shop if I were 20 yrs younger...I've done house construction, roofing, landscaping, cabinet making, kitchen design and installation, electrical, plumbing, and even radio repair, so I got the chops after so many years.
Moonlight in Vermont... or starve.

PS: You need an R2 (Robertson #2 square drive) bit to remove most anything in the 20L.
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Old 11-05-2023, 01:22 PM   #10
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THOR #30527
"You might just want to stay with the AGMs if you are happy using them- question I would have for lithium is whether the generator can charge them- so you might need to add a DCDC converter for the extra 1VDC needed for LFP over AGM."

The Onan 2800i has no problem charging the lithium batteries as long as the Mastervolt Combi 3000 is set up correctly. Thor actually made a few 2022 models without the OHG and used the Onan in place of that. I have that model and have been happy with it for the most part. You may want to consider the price of the inverter swap if yours would not work as Mark mentioned.

That said, depending on your use and weather conditions you park/camp in, may be hesitant to switch to the lithium setup. We are in North Carolina and am not as concerned about extreme conditions as would be if we traveled frequently further north in the winter. The lithium batteries limit your charging/use ability in extreme temperatures. Don't buy in to "the battery heaters on the RElion batteries solving your problems" in the winter because they don't. Thor did not think this through (big surprise) very well because of the time required for the "heaters" to do their job. When the BMS detects you are trying to charge them outside their temperature parameters, it will shut everything down.
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Old 11-08-2023, 10:34 PM   #11
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THOR #1241
Check Max voltage to 12VDC appliances. This is the conundrum of LiFePO4 battery charging. 14.6 V charging exceeds the maximum supply voltage on some. Makes no sense, but the specs are there. (Equalizing an in-circuit FLA battery also exceeds these voltages. So go figure!)
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Old 11-08-2023, 10:48 PM   #12
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Thanks so much to everyone who responded to my questions (great information). You’ve all been very generous with your time.

It really sounds like replacing my AGM house batteries with lithium of the same size will be way more work & $ than I’m willing to do/spend. I’m really glad that I asked for help & didn’t just buy a couple & swap them out. I figured that I would just need to change the setting on my solar controller & I would be good to go. Nothings ever simple.

Thanks everyone, you are the best!

Dave
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Old 11-09-2023, 12:14 AM   #13
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Check Max voltage to 12VDC appliances. This is the conundrum of LiFePO4 battery charging. 14.6 V charging exceeds the maximum supply voltage on some. Makes no sense, but the specs are there. (Equalizing an in-circuit FLA battery also exceeds these voltages. So go figure!)
Most items engineered for a nominal 12 VDC system have a max voltage 0f 15 or 16 VDC, some even as high as 20 or 24 VDC. So not really an issue.
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Old 11-15-2023, 08:00 PM   #14
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THOR #17465
Hello all if anyone has two AGM batteries it makes no sense to upgrade only on 100 ah lithium battery because youíll end up with about the same capacity and have to worry about changing to lithium chargers etc. most important the lithium will shut down in below zero weather where the AGM will work fine below zero.

Mike
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Old 11-16-2023, 12:00 AM   #15
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Thank you Mike. I think I’ll take your advice and just stay with AGM batteries. I had thought that swapping the AGM to lithium would give me a lot more run time before I needed to recharge. But from all of the great replies I received, including yours, it’s just not worth the time & $$$.

Take care

Dave
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Old 11-16-2023, 02:05 PM   #16
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THOR #17465
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Thank you Mike. I think Iíll take your advice and just stay with AGM batteries. I had thought that swapping the AGM to lithium would give me a lot more run time before I needed to recharge. But from all of the great replies I received, including yours, itís just not worth the time & $$$.

Take care

Dave
You're welcome while Lithium has many advantages it comes at an expense. At times small systems are not worth the bother or cost since they offer simuliar capacity. I'm not trying to talk you out of lithium it has many advantage for off the grid. I included a lithium system I designed for my Leisure Wonder. If you would like to see more information you can visit my personal Non - Sponsored web site at RVVOLT.COM


Stay Safe - Mike
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Old 12-04-2023, 09:52 PM   #17
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THOR #31252
My 2023 Thor sequence has the 100ah batteries under coach. Can a 200ah battery fit in the provided space?
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Old 12-05-2023, 12:35 AM   #18
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THOR #30506
Are they lithium? If not you have many changes to make-

If they are lithium ReLion's, then just measure other batteries- check Battleborn and ReLion sites for measures. I am dubious that you can get any bigger than 100A in there, but I recently heard of someone putting two 300A lithium batteries under there.
Best to get them off the bottom as I did- that is just a stupid place for batteries. I moved mine up inside my 20L, and upgraded to 600Ah.

What floor plan do you have?
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Old 12-05-2023, 02:53 PM   #19
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THOR #17465
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Are they lithium? If not you have many changes to make-

If they are lithium ReLion's, then just measure other batteries- check Battleborn and ReLion sites for measures. I am dubious that you can get any bigger than 100A in there, but I recently heard of someone putting two 300A lithium batteries under there.


Best to get them off the bottom as I did- that is just a stupid place for batteries. I moved mine up inside my 20L, and upgraded to 600Ah.

What floor plan do you have?

Hello guys - It's a bit more difficult mixing other batteries with Relion LT (low temperature) since these batteries charge at different speeds than a standard lithium battery. As the Relion LT is charged in cold temperatures, it first uses the amperage from your battery charger to first heat the cells, this can take around 6-8 amps and up to an hour. Once the battery reaches temperature, it then accepts a higher charge. You would be better off spending a bit more money and purchase another Relion battery.

Not sure of your installation, but if the lithium battery exposed to cold weather, you would increase your batteries capacity another 25-30% in winter by just relocating the battery inside the coach. This would also avoid using the built in heater as well. Here's an image below where I re-locacted my battery under the sink on my Compass.

I installed regular fuse don't care for the terminal fuse provided, as well as another battery cut-off. I built a wood removable platform over the battery so I'm not losing any space, I still have a trash can over the battery. Not shown in this image but I also added a strap and blocking to prevent the battery from moving.

I'm writing an In Depth article on the Compass covering dozens of upgrades to include a Dual Lithium Battery System, should be out in a week or so.

Stay Safe - Mike Mas
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Old 12-05-2023, 03:07 PM   #20
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I installed regular fuse don't care for the terminal fuse provided,

Stay Safe - Mike Mas
Is it just me? Cuz IDGI.
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