Compass B+ / Transit AWD / Lithium / In Depth - Mike Mas

[LowOnCash]

Hello Thor Owners - After studying Transit’s new “All Wheel Drive” chassis and Thor’s B+ Compass RV for over a year now, I finally completed my In-Depth review and would like to share my findings and images with others on this forum.

A long awaited feature for Transit owners and the RV industry is Transit’s “All Wheel Drive” chassis. AWD allows RV owners to venture off paved highways, visit remote locations or even extend their traveling season into Winter. However there are some restrictions owners need to adhere to.

In this review, we’ll also look at the Transit’s chassis with its powerful Eco Boost V6 engine and discuss Transit’s 10 speed transmission and five Drive Modes. I’ll also discuss Transit’s unique “Low Slung” chassis design and how it provides the best handling chassis for B+ RV’s. We’ll also look at the many advantages of having a Transit gas RV over a diesel chassis.

I’ll cover dozens of Thor upgrades and improvements I made to both remedy factory errors and design problems. Just a few of my many upgrades was installing a macerator system to avoid dealing with the monster 4” hose. Adding a drip channel over the slide, to prevent water leaks, look at the new RVMP 4000i Flex Power generator advantages over an Onan. Share my “Anti-Winterizing” upgrade which avoids winterizing using Marine / RV heaters to heat the entire coach and its plumbing in Winter. Disclose dozens of potential trouble areas found in the Compass.

In this article - I’ll relocate the Relion lithium battery from the outside step location to inside the coach. We’ll look at RedArc’s 40 amp battery charger problems where it continues to charge the house battery when the engine is off, plus the absence of a charger for the engine batteries when plugged in. Why there’s no longer a “jump start” feature on the Compass. We’ll examine Relion’s Bluetooth-less lithium battery and how it can leave you stranded in cold weather with no means to move the slide in or even start the generator. Discuss why Thors 100 watt solar panel only puts out 10-20 watts most of the time, plus much more. Revel a tankless water heater problem when Thor incorrectly routed the recirculate line in error to the pump inlet, plus much more.

I’ll also share my new “Dual Lithium Battery System” I designed for RV’s and installed in my Compass. This system incorporates two separate lithium battery systems, a “Primary” “Inversion” system, used solely to create 120 volts for the RV’s, AC unit, Micro etc. with a capacity from 4,000 -12,000 watt-hours, plus a “Secondary” 100 ah or 240 ah 12 volt lithium system which is dedicated to power the Compass’ 12 volt devices such as her slides, refrigerator, furnace, pumps etc.

I’ll look forward to your comments, thoughts and questions on this thread.

Please click the link below for the Article:

http://www.rotory.com/coach/compass/

Enjoy - Mike Mas

[DavidEM]

Lots of outrageous and prejudicial statements by the author. But if what he did is true: dramatically increasing battery capacity and charging capability and splitting the batteries and charging in to two, it was quite an accomplishment.

I doubt if your friendly RV dealer would tackle such a system for you. Maybe a mobile RV Tech, but it won’t be cheap.


David

[Chance]

Originally Posted by DavidEM

Lots of outrageous and prejudicial statements by the author. But if what he did is true: dramatically increasing battery capacity and charging capability and splitting the batteries and charging in to two, it was quite an accomplishment.

I doubt if your friendly RV dealer would tackle such a system for you. Maybe a mobile RV Tech, but it won’t be cheap.


David

Not sure I see enough benefit in having a dual battery system if main advantage is to protect the secondary battery from running down in case the primary is unintentionally depleted. There are many similar applications but mostly when “primary” battery is 48 VDC for example, and there is a separate 12 VDC system to power 12 Volt items like fans, water pump, slide, lights, etc. That approach is used with Volta and Xantrex 48 VDC high-capacity electrical systems, and also by auto manufacturers with 48 VDC for mild hybrids. However, if both battery systems are 12 VDC as in this case, it adds more complexity and cost than makes sense to me for what is actually accomplished. I prefer the Keep It Simple approach, but that’s just me.

I see author has aviation background where redundancy and safety take a completely different meaning, but an RV on the ground is not as dangerous in case battery fails. There are other backups anyway.

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the replies Guys - For the same reason there is two separate battery systems in every RV from the factory, where one battery is for the house and one battery for the chassis, is it assures the owner that regardless if the house battery were to be depleted, the 12 volt chassis engine battery is not effected and still able to start the engine for travel.

These same separation principles are employed in my dual lithium systems. Say you left the AC or heater on and depleted the lithium inversion battery, the 12 volt side would not be affected and remain up and running to move the slides in for travel or to fire up the generator to recharge the inversion battery.

In a typical “single battery” lithium battery system if you depleted the charge, the owner would be stuck with no 12 volt power for the coach to move the slide in for travel or even start the generator to recharge.

There are a number of other advantages. Unlike a 12 volt lithium house battery, the Inversion system batteries are from 4,000 to 32,000 watt hours, they operate at high amperage, creates intense heat in summer, requires heat in winter, heavy cabling, 300 amp fuses, an inverter, 120 volt panels, etc. All these components are contained within the inversion system installation where high voltage safety can be employed and temperatures can be controlled.

The 12 volt lithium system does not have limitations of high amperage, heat, high voltage, etc. Therefore it allows the 12 volt lithium battery to be located almost anywhere in the coach, hopefully close to where the manufacturer located the house batteries for cabling reason.

For a good explanation of a dual battery system look over my video on my 5112 Dual Battery /Dual Inverter / Dual Voltage system I completed last year and has been adapted by many high-end A's and the Prevost group. Enjoy!

Thanks Mike

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxSS44przNs

[Chance]

Originally Posted by LowOnCash

Thanks for the replies Guys - For the same reason there is two separate battery systems in every RV from the factory, where one battery is for the house and one battery for the chassis, is it assures the owner that regardless if the house battery were to be depleted, the 12 volt chassis engine battery is not effected and still able to start the engine for travel.

These same separation principles are employed in my dual lithium systems. Say you left the AC or heater on and depleted the lithium inversion battery, the 12 volt side would not be affected and remain up and running to move the slides in for travel or to fire up the generator to recharge the inversion battery.

In a typical “single battery” lithium battery system if you depleted the charge, the owner would be stuck with no 12 volt power for the coach to move the slide in for travel or even start the generator to recharge.

….cut….

In the unlikely event that happened, why not use coach battery to start engine and then generator? After a few minutes you could be on your way.

With a very large system to eliminate generator it would make more sense to me, but then I would want 48 VDC Primary, requiring dual system anyway (at least for now).

For smaller motorhomes, 3 battery systems seems a bit much to me, not that there is anything wrong with your system. I just believe in the “less is more” approach when practical.

[DavidEM]

Originally Posted by Chance

I just believe in the “less is more” approach when practical.

David

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the reply - It's important to note, while I installed this dual system in my small B+ Compass, the system is designed for any RV from a B+ to a million dollar Class A or Prevost. I installed this same dual system with a higher capacity in my Super C Renegade in 2019. For 5 years it’s worked flawlessly, I seldom stay at RV parks and run the AC all night. Actually, a dual system works especially well for B+ RV’s, because most B+ owners (myself included) seldom go to RV parks when traveling, they stop most anywhere for the night and keep a low profile.

Regarding your comment that it is unlikely to deplete the battery, depleting the lithium battery is the one biggest problems with RV lithium systems. Owners fail to monitor the SOC until the BCM shuts down the battery. When that happens and the coach goes dark and owners panic.

A dual battery system addresses this problem, regardless of user mistakes or AC usage, the 12 volt house battery is unaffected. The lights, pumps furnace, fridge, slides and starting the generator all works as expected.
The only thing the owner notes is they can't use the air conditioner or micro, so they just start the generator and keep on camping.

It’s important to note that regardless of how big a lithium system is, no one should ever buy an RV without a generator!

This whole “generator delete deal” was borne by RV manufacturers for increased profits. Manufactures charge extreme high prices for even minimum lithium systems, then neglect to issue credit for the missing generator. While they tell you the lithium system replaces a generator, this is the far from the truth.Don’t think for a second your lithium batteries are not going be depleted.

Don't buy the “use your engine to charge the lithium battery hype”. While it’s fine to use an engine alternator for charging while in route, using your main engine to charge a lithium battery while stationary, is a wrong, can be damaging to the engine and exhaust and is far from efficient. Keep in mind, most “off the grid RV’s" are parked and stationary. However, every B+ C and Super C's engine is designed to be cooled from frontal air. There is no frontal air induced during stationary charging. It makes little sense to sit stationary charging in summer as intense engine heat cooks the engine bay and electronics and heats the firewall and undersides from the exhaust of the very coach you are trying to keep cool.

Bottom line is - why run a 6 cylinder engine with mechanical drag of 6 cylinders, 24 valves & springs, water pump, oil pump, alternator, plus the massive additional load of the transmission torque converter and hydraulic pumps combined with the high h.p. drag of a fully engaged cooling fan which itself can consume from 10-20 hp, or worse 30-50 hp on a pusher, when a simple single cylinder air or water cooled Onan generator and do the same job more economically with practically no heat.

A generator is one of the most important components to every lithium system.

Don’t let anyone take your generator Guys, you'll need it!

Ride Safe - Mike

[Chateau_Nomad]

We have what I consider a small motorhome. I converted to 200Ah of lithium, and will add another 100 -200Ah this coming spring. But .. I would NEVER consider "deleting" our 4k generator. Adding any more batteries would severely compromise storage space, which is a constant issue with smaller coaches.

We boondock a lot, which was the impetus for the lithium switch. However we avoid hot weather if possible. We can run everything off battery including A/C, but the math says A/C will suck the batteries dry in short order... which defeats the purpose of lithium boondocking.

At this time, lithium is a game changer for large coaches... not so much smaller coaches. Sure... with room for 12kW of batteries, running the A/C overnight is a reality. But how many vans have room for that amount of battery power? Or the solar to back it up?

IMO, a battery exclusive coach with no generator is a stretch. And I agree that using the coach engine and aux alternator is NOT the answer. Technology is just not there yet. At this point I think coaches in this category are more marketing hype than anything. And unfortunately the victims are often unsuspecting first time buyers.

[Soarer]

Mike,
Excellent report!

Your report says that the TPMS cannot be selected to show on the dash display while moving.

On my 2023 Compass 23TW which is on a 2022 Transit chassis, the tire pressures can be displayed while moving. Here is a photo taken at 65 mph:
https://www.thorforums.com/forums/at...1&d=1707106561

If Ford removed this capability from your newer chassis, they made a big mistake.

PS when I serviced the tires with air the 2 fronts were the same and the 4 rears were the same pressure. When traveling the pressures increase as expected due to increased temperatures in the tires and tend to vary up to a couple of psi among the tires.

Compasses rock,
Jim

[Bob Nodine]

I loved the article. My comment is that for a guy who strives for detail it seems you would want to change the "still looking" in your signature.

We started RVing in 1997 and moved to diesel's in 2000. We stayed with diesels until a few years ago when we decided to downsize. I came to the same conclusion that gasoline powered motorhomes are the way to go these days. I love the quite, smooth power and low cost easy maintenance. The only downside is when you want to carry a lot of weight, but we don't anymore. I put over 100,000 miles on a Class A with a Cummins ISL 8.9 liter engine and was beginning to worry about when that big failure was going to happen that would cost between $10,000 and $20,000 to repair. I also got tired of crawling around under that thing with a grease gun and changing out 7 gallons of oil and three large filters. Another thing that played on my mind was the age of the air bags and the hassle it would be to change them. We also needed about $7000 in tires when we traded it.

[LowOnCash]

Originally Posted by Bob Nodine

I loved the article. My comment is that for a guy who strives for detail it seems you would want to change the "still looking" in your signature.

We started RVing in 1997 and moved to diesel's in 2000. We stayed with diesels until a few years ago when we decided to downsize. I came to the same conclusion that gasoline powered motorhomes are the way to go these days. I love the quite, smooth power and low cost easy maintenance. The only downside is when you want to carry a lot of weight, but we don't anymore. I put over 100,000 miles on a Class A with a Cummins ISL 8.9 liter engine and was beginning to worry about when that big failure was going to happen that would cost between $10,000 and $20,000 to repair. I also got tired of crawling around under that thing with a grease gun and changing out 7 gallons of oil and three large filters. Another thing that played on my mind was the age of the air bags and the hassle it would be to change them. We also needed about $7000 in tires when we traded it.

Bob Thanks for the reply - I agree 100%, diesel power still plays an important role with RV's and will remain doing so for some time to come. I still own my Renegade Verona 34 with its 9L Cummins its a rocket ship and drives like a pickup.

However, when it comes to light to mid duty RV's, a gas engine can offer many advantages as you outlined, for me the most important is a Gas Generator instead of a propane unit.

Gas engines have changed drastically in the past years thanks to new turbo technology, we have 4 cylinder gas engines putting out the power of some V6 and even some V8's. It's not uncommon to find a 4 cylinder engines in big luxury cars these days.

Ride Safe - Mike

[Bob Nodine]

Originally Posted by LowOnCash

Bob Thanks for the reply - I agree 100%, diesel power still plays an important role with RV's and will remain doing so for some time to come. I still own my Renegade Verona 34 with its 9L Cummins its a rocket ship and drives like a pickup.

However, when it comes to light to mid duty RV's, a gas engine can offer many advantages as you outlined, for me the most important is a Gas Generator instead of a propane unit.

Gas engines have changed drastically in the past years thanks to new turbo technology, we have 4 cylinder gas engines putting out the power of some V6 and even some V8's. It's not uncommon to find a 4 cylinder engines in big luxury cars these days.

Ride Safe - Mike

The 4 cylinder in my 2023 Chevy Colorado puts out 310 HP and 390 ft/lbs of torque. It can be bumped to 430 ft/lbs of torque with a software update.

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the reply Yes these new 4 cyl are now power houses!


Mike