RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 

Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Maintenance and Repair
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-30-2020, 11:58 PM   #21
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: California
Posts: 1
THOR #8958
Yes, 50A on each of the two legs. However, you only have a total capacity of 50A whether on one leg or between the two bus bar legs. If the coach draws a total of more than 50A, the pedestal breaker protecting the 50A pedestal service should trip if it's working properly.
__________________

__________________
ivopivo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 12:32 AM   #22
Thor Palazzo 33.3 diesel
 
TurnerFam's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Palazzo 33.3 34'bunkhouse
State: Georgia
Posts: 2,450
THOR #4735
not correct, unless you are ONLY referring to 240v service where EVERY appliance and device is 240v

RVs typically do NOT have 240v appliances or devices, so the two 'hot legs' are simply used as two different 120v lines, to two SEPARATE power buses - therefore 100amps of usable power is CERTAINLY and COMMONLY possible - many of us certainly do especially during the hot summer 'two air conditioners at the same time' months!
__________________

__________________
the Turners
'14 Palazzo 33.3 bunkhouse 34' diesel
KingTailgater2 Dish HD, 100w/5a SOLAR, BlueOx
110,000+mi since '14 - US, Alaska, Canada (also, '14 Gulfstream Amerilite and '07 ForestRiver Rockwood) : )b
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 01:52 AM   #23
Site Team
 
16ACE27's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: ACE 27.1
State: Florida
Posts: 5,417
THOR #7035
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivopivo View Post
Yes, 50A on each of the two legs. However, you only have a total capacity of 50A at 240 VAC whether on one leg or between the two bus bar legs. If the coach draws a total of more than 50A at 240 VAC, the pedestal breaker protecting the 50A 240 VAC pedestal service should trip if it's working properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurnerFam View Post
not correct, unless you are ONLY referring to 240v service where EVERY appliance and device is 240v

RVs typically do NOT have 240v appliances or devices, so the two 'hot legs' are simply used as two different 120v lines, to two SEPARATE power buses - therefore 100 amps at 120 VAC of usable power is CERTAINLY and COMMONLY possible - many of us certainly do especially during the hot summer 'two air conditioners at the same time' months!
My corrections - You can't talk amps and power without including voltage.

Doesn't make any sense - there is no "between the two bus bars" in a 240 VAC system with neutral. If you were to fully load one leg to 50 amps to the neutral, so 120 VAC, with nothing on the other leg, and then exceeded it, the ganged 50 amp breaker would trip. If instead, you started adding load to the other "hot" leg to neutral at 120 VAC, you could add up to 50 amps on that leg as well (since we're talking 120 VAC). At that point the neutral would be carrying 0 amps.
__________________
Ted & Melinda
2016 ACE 27.1
2016 Chevy Sonic Toad
2020 Chevy Colorado Z71 Trail Runner Alternate Toad
16ACE27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 05:42 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Ford1's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Serrano
State: Florida
Posts: 184
THOR #8144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trkyte@msn.com View Post
I have to question the 62 cycles per sec.
how many times must you set your clocks back?
First of all, I should probably assume that you are joking about the 62 cycles having any affect on the clock, but just in case someone else is confused by the comment, rest assured that unless you have an older 120 volt clock with an electric timer gearmotor, your clock will not be affected. Most clocks today convert the 120VAC to a low voltage DC which powers the timers ( usually IC's ) that create their own counters. Their counter rates are completely independent of the 120 Hertz A.C. source.
__________________
Ford1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 02:37 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
The reason 30 Amp 120/240 Volt with ground could be a relatively easy future standard, which is NEMA 14-30R receptacle, is that with a simple and cheap adapter (already in production), existing 30A motorhomes could plug in ó and 30A pedestal breaker would protect motorhome properly (limits to 30 Amps). Any new standard would require compatibility with existing motorhomes so campgrounds/industry could implement changes over time, and 14-30R would support that. New campground sections and motorhome manufacturers could supply 30A 240V for equivalent of 60 Amps, plenty for dual air conditioners without needing power management systems.

Unfortunately, 30A 120/240 Volt would not save enough capital investment over existing 50A standard to make it worth the trouble so I donít see it happening; not unless itís done for other reasons.

On the plus side, a 30A 120/240 Volt 14-30R connection could not only power existing 30A motorhomes, but with a different adapter supply up to 60 Amps to larger 50A motorhomes which could easily power their 2 air conditioners.

I canít recall what was proposed years ago, but now that 50A is so common, itís very doubtful there will be changes to RV electrical system unless itís to increase power beyond 50A.

A combined 60 Amps would make a great middle ground between present 30A and 50A RV services, but probably not cost effective.




Sorry for thread thrift, but I assumed LDRider had already gotten his answer.
Existing 30 amp camper could not plug into a 120/240 outlet! 120 volts is 3 wire. 240 volt is 4 wire. There is only 1 hot wire in 120 volts.

You could not make an adapter that would separate the neutrals and grounds as required by code.
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 08:01 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
OldWEB's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: England
Posts: 318
THOR #16471
Sounds smart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ford1 View Post
First of all, I should probably assume that you are joking about the 62 cycles having any affect on the clock, but just in case someone else is confused by the comment, rest assured that unless you have an older 120 volt clock with an electric timer gearmotor, your clock will not be affected. Most clocks today convert the 120VAC to a low voltage DC which powers the timers ( usually IC's ) that create their own counters. Their counter rates are completely independent of the 120 Hertz A.C. source.
Now I am confused that someone would post before checking the facts. IF a clock (most likely made in China) is connected to the power grid, it will use the frequency to time the ICs. With less parts, it is cheaper and easier to construct, remember I mentioned China. They can and may add the counter, also if it is battery operated, it HAS to have its own counter. I maintained the diesel generators on many isolated sites and it almost did not matter what digital clock there was, it needed to be reset. We would have a battery operated clock beside the plug in AC style to monitor the frequency over the long term, always.
__________________
OldWEB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 08:09 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
Way to techie for this old boy
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2020, 08:41 PM   #28
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,856
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
Existing 30 amp camper could not plug into a 120/240 outlet! 120 volts is 3 wire. 240 volt is 4 wire. There is only 1 hot wire in 120 volts.

You could not make an adapter that would separate the neutrals and grounds as required by code.

Please explain what you mean by ďseparatingĒ the grounds and neutrals? Iím talking about the same type of connection as a present 30A but with an extra 30A hot leg (L1, L2, neutral, and ground). The adapter would not use the extra leg for existing 30A RVs. Iím not following your objection.

When people connect their existing 30A to a 50A (240V typical 50A 4 wire), they just donít use one of the two hot legs. Those adapters are used all the time already, although as Iíve said in other threads, the 50A breaker does not protect wiring from 50A pedestal to 30A main breaker at motorhome panel. Thatís why I wouldnít use one myself

However, if you had 30A version of the 50A 4-wire at campgrounds, the adapter would use L1 or L2, plus the neutral and ground for existing 120V 30A RVs.

For what itís worth, these adapters are also already manufactured (about $20), and since pedestal breaker would be limited to 30A on both L1 and L2, wiring from pedestal to RV would be protected at 30 Amps.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 12:36 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
Please explain what you mean by “separating” the grounds and neutrals? I’m talking about the same type of connection as a present 30A but with an extra 30A hot leg (L1, L2, neutral, and ground). The adapter would not use the extra leg for existing 30A RVs. I’m not following your objection.

When people connect their existing 30A to a 50A (240V typical 50A 4 wire), they just don’t use one of the two hot legs. Those adapters are used all the time already, although as I’ve said in other threads, the 50A breaker does not protect wiring from 50A pedestal to 30A main breaker at motorhome panel. That’s why I wouldn’t use one myself

However, if you had 30A version of the 50A 4-wire at campgrounds, the adapter would use L1 or L2, plus the neutral and ground for existing 120V 30A RVs.

For what it’s worth, these adapters are also already manufactured (about $20), and since pedestal breaker would be limited to 30A on both L1 and L2, wiring from pedestal to RV would be protected at 30 Amps.
For what it is worth as an electrician I know exactly how the adapters work. An existing 30 amp service has 3 wires. A 240 volt service would require 4 wires. You tell me how you would plug in your 4 wire cord into a 3 wire cord and have 4 separate wires into the existing 30 amp RV. Neutrals and grounds are and must be separate. It is very obvious the 2 hots have to be separate. You would have to remodel the 30 amp RV service with a new panel with a double pole main breaker and service cord.
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 02:50 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,856
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
For what it is worth as an electrician I know exactly how the adapters work. An existing 30 amp service has 3 wires. A 240 volt service would require 4 wires. You tell me how you would plug in your 4 wire cord into a 3 wire cord and have 4 separate wires into the existing 30 amp RV. Neutrals and grounds are and must be separate. It is very obvious the 2 hots have to be separate. You would have to remodel the 30 amp RV service with a new panel with a double pole main breaker and service cord.

Yeah, I know how adapters work too, but you’re not reading what I’m writing, but picturing the very opposite.

I’ve been referring to a 30A 120V/240V “new” standard that would bridge the capacity gap between 30A 120V and 50A 120/240V present RV electrical standards. And I’m saying it would be possible for existing 30A 120V RVs to plug into a future 30A 120/240V pedestal using an adapter (which already exist).

See picture below which may clear this up. It really doesn’t matter because it is unfortunately not going to happen anyway because economics don’t favor it enough.

Picture below from below:

http://www.myrv.us/electric/Pg/30amp_Service.htm
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	E9331B12-5786-4397-B6DB-20766EFF9EB9.jpg
Views:	35
Size:	106.0 KB
ID:	24031  
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 04:43 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
I'm gonna say this one more time and then I'm done. The new service is 30 amp 120/240 volts 4 wire. Your camper is old with the existing 30 amp 120 volt wire plug. Yes you could plug into it with an adapter but you would not get any benefit from it. You would have to use and adapter and get just 120 volts. You made it sound like the old 30 amp 120 could make use of the 240 volts. The only ones able to make use of the 240 30 amps would be new trailers. Then we would have 3 systems to explain the newbies and a bunch more adapters. Like you said. Ain't gonna happen.
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-01-2020, 02:10 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,856
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
I'm gonna say this one more time and then I'm done. The new service is 30 amp 120/240 volts 4 wire. Your camper is old with the existing 30 amp 120 volt wire plug. Yes you could plug into it with an adapter but you would not get any benefit from it. You would have to use and adapter and get just 120 volts. You made it sound like the old 30 amp 120 could make use of the 240 volts. The only ones able to make use of the 240 30 amps would be new trailers. Then we would have 3 systems to explain the newbies and a bunch more adapters. Like you said. Ain't gonna happen.

What the hell? So now instead of admitting you either canít read or were flat out wrong, you change your statement completely and ďnowĒ claim that that was what you were saying all along? Give me a break.

There is nothing wrong with making mistakes if you accept responsibility, we all make mistakes, but this kind of misleading communication to save face at expense of other person will ensure people will not want to communicate with you at all.

The point that was made was that during transition period if campgrounds updated pedestals to provide up to 60A of total capacity on a new standard, that older motorhomes could still plug in and get their 30 Amps. So the ďbenefitĒ an existing 30A RV would get is that it would get 30 Amps instead of zero.

Letís just drop it since itís not going to happen anyway, and I have better things to do than arguing.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 05:06 AM   #33
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New Jersey
Posts: 5
THOR #19050
Have a newbie question for you - thank you in advance. Have a 2019 Hurricane 27b - 30 amp. When it’s at our home, would like to keep batteries charged and be able to use the RV (fridge, AC). Can I use regular household outlets / extension cord to bring power to the RV?
__________________
philhnj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 05:10 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
Quote:
Originally Posted by philhnj View Post
Have a newbie for you - thank you in advance. Have a 2019 Hurricane 27b - 30 amp. Can I use regular household outlets / extension cord to bring power to the RV?
Yes you can using a 30/20 dog bone and a 12 ga extention cord and some "Energy Management"
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 05:17 AM   #35
Junior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: New Jersey
Posts: 5
THOR #19050
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavie View Post
Yes you can using a 30/20 dog bone and a 12 ga extention cord and some "Energy Management"
Thank you very much.
__________________
philhnj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 05:08 PM   #36
Senior Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
State: Missouri
Posts: 1,082
THOR #6903
Quote:
Originally Posted by philhnj View Post
Have a newbie question for you - thank you in advance. Have a 2019 Hurricane 27b - 30 amp. When itís at our home, would like to keep batteries charged and be able to use the RV (fridge, AC). Can I use regular household outlets / extension cord to bring power to the RV?
You would be wise to purchase the shortest possible 10 gauge extension cord rather than a 12 gague

Done the same for many years and got plenty of 12 gauge cord hot before purchasing the 10
__________________
lwmcguire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 06:16 PM   #37
Thor Palazzo 33.3 diesel
 
TurnerFam's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Palazzo 33.3 34'bunkhouse
State: Georgia
Posts: 2,450
THOR #4735
long but well drawn-out conversation about 'lectricity! Love it...

yes, master electricians and those in the trade will side with the 'what the breaker says is what you have' philosophy, but those of us in the 'real world' of RVs eventually learn to understand that '50amps' ain't the same as what electricians would explain it as. No matter how you 'say' it, an RV with a 50amp Main Panel, with only 120v single pole breakers for all it's circuits, plugging into a 50amp RV outlet, is going to have a range of up to 100amps of 'usable' 120v power, not just 20 more than a more typical 30amp RV outlet, though by the terminology we use, you would think so, at least initially.

The reason there is so much discussion on this and other RV forums is that the electrical trade doesn't differentiate between 120v and 240v power, when it comes to what the circuit is 'called'. A 30amp 120v circuit is called 30amps. A 30amp 240v circuit is called 30amps. But, they are far from the same. One is TWICE as much as the other, when it comes to the amount of 'amps' that can be drawn, over the hot leg, or legs, of power.

Now, while a very few large motorhomes and fifth-wheels may make use of 240v power, which is allowed by the design of their Main Panels, the vast, vast majority of 50amp RVs, whether travel trailers, fifth-wheels, or motorhomes, DON'T have any appliance or need for any usage of 240v power, so their Main Panel design does NOT allow for placement of any double-pole 240v breakers, other than the 50amp Main Breaker itself. You can't 'add' a 240v breaker, even if you wanted to. You would have to replace the Main Panel itself.
As this is the case with most 50amp RVs, it's therefore safe to say that they can use up to 50amps of power on both 'sides', or 100amps all together. Since neither side can use more than 50amps at 120v before it's side of the Main Breaker would trip, the factories try to 'even out' the circuits on each 'side' - a front a/c unit on the left, the rear a/c unit on the right, etc. It's not a PERFECT science, but they try to do this the best they can in order for the owner to be able to make use of almost ALL of that 100amps before one side exceeds the 50amps for it, and trips both sides of the Main Breaker - but, usually a single breaker actually trips before the Main breakers do.
Single breakers are the same - the factories try to squeeze in as many separate breakers as feasible, and economical for the situation, but inevitably a breaker can only do so much, even if 6 outlets are the only items on it's circuit, but are all in use by devices drawing more than the 15amps it is designed for.

Enjoy ! Fun!
__________________
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2020, 06:33 PM   #38
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
What you all tell the newbies is 100 amps of power. But when one leg goes over 50 amps and trips the breaker they stand back and say What the hell. IF you want to use the terms 100 amps of power( witch an electrician will never say) at least have the decency to explain that it will trip with over 50 amps on one leg. If a newbie decides to move wires around in the panel and puts too much load on one leg that is exactly what will happen. You need to tell them how to balance a panel! They also need to know that there is 240 volts present in that panel. Not just 2 120 volt legs.
__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 03:11 AM   #39
Senior Member
 
Hooligan2's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2016 Siesta Sprinter 24ST
State: Florida
Posts: 435
THOR #2812
Might help- A 50 amp service uses 2 50 amp breakers but they are mechanically connected together so that if one circuit exceeds 50 amps it will trip it's breaker and also the other breaker it is paired with
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	50.jpg
Views:	14
Size:	60.6 KB
ID:	24065  
__________________
U.S. Coast Guard retired- 1956-1985
Pensacola, Florida
2016 Siesta 24ST
1972 Moto Guzzi Eldorado
Hooligan2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2020, 03:19 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
Brand: Keystone
Model: Sprinter
State: Florida
Posts: 1,287
THOR #15553
Click image for larger version

Name:	What he said in that comment up there (1).jpg
Views:	13
Size:	17.1 KB
ID:	24066
__________________

__________________
2011 Keystone Sprinter 323BHS. Retired Master Electrician. All Motor Homes are RV's. All RV's are not Motor Homes.
cavie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 07:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×