Progressive Industries EMS problem

[Vibeman]

I installed a Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C in my 2021 Hurricane 29M soon after we purchased it. It has worked well EXCEPT for 2 times. The first was last January at an overnight stay in a park in Jasper TX. I plugged into the park pedestal and after the initial delay the relay contacts in the EMS began clattering non-stop and would not supply power to coach. I switched the bypass on and still contacts were clattering. My LED display continually showed 115v and E-0 (no errors) even though it still was not supplying power to the coach. The LED also scrolled to showed“PE4”. The park guy brought out a portable EMS unit which he plugged into the post. It showed no errors until I plugged my cable into it, then it showed 2 errors:”Reverse Polarity” and “Reverse Ground”. I tried both of my cables and it made no difference. We just ran on batteries that night and moved on in the morning. We had no power problems at the next park and several other parks we stayed at through April. I contacted Progressive and this was the reply:
“The only reason I can think the EMS would chatter is if the voltage dropped low enough that the contactor couldn’t keep the solenoid energized. This would also explain the PE4 as if the Voltage is <104 the EMS will not pass power. If the EMS had a problem with the contactor I would expect it to happen everywhere you plugged in. Bypassing the EMS just tells the unit to energize the contactor and let shore power through ignoring the EMS functions, if the voltage falls to low the EMS’s contactor may chatter as it is trying to stay closed, but the magnetic field is not strong enough.”

Since it only happened at that one park, and it worked fine at multiple other parks, I assumed it must have been low park voltage as the Progressive tech suggested and did not pursue it any more.
We got back home (Michigan) in April and It also worked fine plugged in there. In June we took a 200 mile trip to a Michigan park for a week and had no problems. Our next trip began yesterday. To a campground only 50 miles from home. When we got there and plugged in we got the exact same situation as we had last January in Texas. The park guy came out and checked voltage, his meter showed 110v. He could find no problem with the pedestal but installed a new 30a receptacle any way. That made no difference. He was at a loss. I got out my 50’ extension cable and plugged into the pedestal at the adjacent (unoccupied) lot and I got powered up with no problems, it showed 111v. Park guy was mystified. Since that lot next door was already rented by a soon to be arriving family member we just moved over there and waited. Our family member arrived and had no problem with the power pedestal, however they also had no EMS. This saved our current trip as this park was completely booked this weekend.
As I write this it is now the next morning and all is still good. I will write to Progressive again, but since it is Saturday it will probably be a couple of days before they reply. In the meantime I thought I would post this to see if anyone else has had this problem, or if anyone has any thoughts about it. I am now seriously considering installing a manual switch to bypass the EMS in case this happens again. I now feel this is a major disadvantage to a hardwired EMS as opposed to a portable one.
-Ken

[16ACE27]

Wow, that's a puzzler.
At the first park where you got the "Reverse Ground" was that on a plug tester and where was it plugged into?

A false "Hot Ground Reverse" condition can be indicated if the neutral wire is open. The fact that the EMS relay was chattering indicates it was not receiving enough voltage consistently to keep it energized. This can happen due to a poor connection. The no load voltage looks fine but as soon as any current is drawn the voltage drop across the poor connection cause problems. It may also be an intermittent power cord connection problem.

I would go back and double check all EMS connections as well as your ATS connections. If you don't find anything you need to be prepared with a voltmeter and plan the next time it happens to track down the problem.

I would start by opening all breakers in the power center (remove all loads) to see if the EMS is happy under "no load" conditions. Then load it by closing breakers until the problem appears and then track it down.

[Judge]

I have the 50A hardwired version I installed myself. I installed it after the transfer switch to also protect against generator power issues. It’s easier and cheaper to replace an ATS than an A/C or fridge. In 3 years I have never seen that behavior.

I also would never use the unit’s Bypass switch until I verified the power was good to prevent potential damage if bypassing the EMS.

ACE makes good suggestions about checking all of the connections as well as getting the meter out. Perhaps something has loosened up and a bad connection could cause this type of behavior.

[Vibeman]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Wow, that's a puzzler.
At the first park where you got the "Reverse Ground" was that on a plug tester and where was it plugged into?

He had a portable surge protector (Southwire Surge Guard model 44280) and plugged it into my campsite pedestal. It showed everything was good until I plugged my power cable into his Surge Guard and then it showed the errors.

A false "Hot Ground Reverse" condition can be indicated if the neutral wire is open. The fact that the EMS relay was chattering indicates it was not receiving enough voltage consistently to keep it energized. This can happen due to a poor connection. The no load voltage looks fine but as soon as any current is drawn the voltage drop across the poor connection cause problems. It may also be an intermittent power cord connection problem.

That’s what the park guy was suspecting yesterday, and that is why he replaced the receptacle..


I would go back and double check all EMS connections as well as your ATS connections. If you don't find anything you need to be prepared with a voltmeter and plan the next time it happens to track down the problem.

I will do that when I get home next week.

I would start by opening all breakers in the power center (remove all loads) to see if the EMS is happy under "no load" conditions. Then load it by closing breakers until the problem appears and then track it down.

I might move back over and do that on the offending pedestal before I leave on Monday if that site is unoccupied, but if the contacts never even closed I think it was in effect already a no load situation.


-Ken

[Vibeman]

Originally Posted by Judge

I have the 50A hardwired version I installed myself. I installed it after the transfer switch to also protect against generator power issues. It’s easier and cheaper to replace an ATS than an A/C or fridge. In 3 years I have never seen that behavior.

I also would never use the unit’s Bypass switch until I verified the power was good to prevent potential damage if bypassing the EMS.

ACE makes good suggestions about checking all of the connections as well as getting the meter out. Perhaps something has loosened up and a bad connection could cause this type of behavior.

We have another family member here with a Progressive 50a hardwired into his 5th wheel. He is only a few sites away and has no problems either. He has never heard his contacts clatter either. This is a very large campground with hundreds of sites and quite a few high end motor homes parked here now many of which, one might assume, have hardwired EMS too. The park maintenance guy also lives here in the park during camping season and he has never encountered this situation. I am beginning to think this might be a problem with my EMS unit.

I wired my EMS ahead of the transfer switch. My thinking was that if it failed I could still use my generator, which I trust a lot more than a park power pedestal.

-Ken

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Vibeman

We have another family member here with a Progressive 50a hardwired into his 5th wheel. He is only a few sites away and has no problems either. He has never heard his contacts clatter either. This is a very large campground with hundreds of sites and quite a few high end motor homes parked here now many of which, one might assume, have hardwired EMS too. The park maintenance guy also lives here in the park during camping season and he has never encountered this situation. I am beginning to think this might be a problem with my EMS unit.

I wired my EMS ahead of the transfer switch. My thinking was that if it failed I could still use my generator, which I trust a lot more than a park power pedestal.

-Ken

I tossed this around a lot and ultimately I decided to go with the Southwire Portable EMS https://store.technorv.com/collectio...otection-34951 It has a optional companion device which I have two one inside the coach another on inside electrical compartment door that tell me all of the specifics including actual voltage on both legs. See it here https://store.technorv.com/collectio...portable-units
If my EMS fails like in your case; you know why or better details as to why. Maybe your unit has a calibration issue and it is falsely shutting down at something like 108vac thinking it is < than 105vac (or similar)?

Even though I have portable unit I rewired so I have best of both worlds as if hardwired and portable. I bought a 4 ft 50 amp shorepower cord and hardwired it into ATS thus replacing my 30 ft OEM cord that was previously hardwired into ATS. I plug my Southwire Portable EMS into the male end of short cord and it sits in electrical bay where it is always locked. I put a female end on my 30ft OEM Shorepower cord so I plug it in to male side of my portable EMS and run that 30ft extension to the pedestal. But before I plug in, I also have the cheaper 50amp portable Southwire https://store.technorv.com/collectio...otector-50-amp that I always plug into any new pedestal 1st. If it does not pass that test, I never connect to my main unit or RV. So in a way, I am double protected. (Note: once good I move my true test portable from pedestal and throw it on the side of electrical bay (theft worries)

Twice in 3 1/2 years I have had my test portable 50 amp surge guard show a red warning or error. 1st time the RV park allowed us to move next door. We never bothered as to why the failure, the 2nd time they had no other sites; so we left and they gave us a refund. I didn't even try with my EMS inside electrical bay because it is quite expensive to me. To be honest, I didn't care for the park anyway, and I had legitimate excuse to leave

Like you, I didn't think or bother with putting this type of protection AFTER ATS to include Generator. I did the other wiring myself. I like the extra 4 ft of shorepower cord at times I need. I also like how I can easily remove and/or replace any component the way it is wired now, including bypass that I know is not recommended but if you have confirmed clean input power; you should be able to easily swap EMS devices to see if one is failing or not.

[Vibeman]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

I tossed this around a lot and ultimately I decided to go with the Southwire Portable EMS https://store.technorv.com/collectio...otection-34951 It has a optional companion device which I have two one inside the coach another on inside electrical compartment door that tell me all of the specifics including actual voltage on both legs. See it here https://store.technorv.com/collectio...portable-units
If my EMS fails like in your case; you know why or better details as to why. Maybe your unit has a calibration issue and it is falsely shutting down at something like 108vac thinking it is < than 105vac (or similar)?

Even though I have portable unit I rewired so I have best of both worlds as if hardwired and portable. I bought a 4 ft 50 amp shorepower cord and hardwired it into ATS thus replacing my 30 ft OEM cord that was previously hardwired into ATS. I plug my Southwire Portable EMS into the male end of short cord and it sits in electrical bay where it is always locked. I put a female end on my 30ft OEM Shorepower cord so I plug it in to male side of my portable EMS and run that 30ft extension to the pedestal. But before I plug in, I also have the cheaper 50amp portable Southwire https://store.technorv.com/collectio...otector-50-amp that I always plug into any new pedestal 1st. If it does not pass that test, I never connect to my main unit or RV. So in a way, I am double protected. (Note: once good I move my true test portable from pedestal and throw it on the side of electrical bay (theft worries)

Twice in 3 1/2 years I have had my test portable 50 amp surge guard show a red warning or error. 1st time the RV park allowed us to move next door. We never bothered as to why the failure, the 2nd time they had no other sites; so we left and they gave us a refund. I didn't even try with my EMS inside electrical bay because it is quite expensive to me. To be honest, I didn't care for the park anyway, and I had legitimate excuse to leave

Like you, I didn't think or bother with putting this type of protection AFTER ATS to include Generator. I did the other wiring myself. I like the extra 4 ft of shorepower cord at times I need. I also like how I can easily remove and/or replace any component the way it is wired now, including bypass that I know is not recommended but if you have confirmed clean input power; you should be able to easily swap EMS devices to see if one is failing or not.

Thanks for the suggestion, it sounds interesting. I will think on it and how I might apply it to my situation. My “electrical bay” is inside, under the bed and the shore power input is a twist lock bulkhead fitting on the outside wall so everything out there is exposed. Both times I had a problem with the EMS it was fairly easily worked around but the law of averages will burn me eventually. If/when Progressive gets back to me I will update this thread.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Vibeman

Thanks for the suggestion, it sounds interesting. I will think on it and how I might apply it to my situation. My “electrical bay” is inside, under the bed and the shore power input is a twist lock bulkhead fitting on the outside wall so everything out there is exposed. Both times I had a problem with the EMS it was fairly easily worked around but the law of averages will burn me eventually. If/when Progressive gets back to me I will update this thread.

I am thinking Progressive will replace, based on what you say it is most probable culprit. But if you are left holding the bag, you might try some different. I am attaching a picture of mine for your future reference with what you may do under the bed. In theory you would just need a male end that feeds your ATS and female on cord that goes to your outside wall connector; and you become plug and play. Theft is even less concern for you because the expensive EMS is inside. My Southwire Wireless remote for EMS is inside RV on the wall above AGS controller, so I can always see what it is doing without going outside or in your case under the bed.

Even when Progressive fixes, you might shop around for one of the cheaper Surge Guards that is portable; so you can check the pedestal professionally before pulling any shore cord out. I am a Southwire guy, but any brand will do; but I would suggest getting the 50 amp model; so you could use it and your hardwired system at the same time if you wanted to without a dogbone. If I was at a Park that was doing some funky things with the electrical, I would use both of mine Surge Guards. I have lock for the unit that would go on the pedestal. My EMS is ALWAYS inside Electrical bay. No one knows I have it

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Vibeman

Thanks for the suggestion, it sounds interesting. I will think on it and how I might apply it to my situation. My “electrical bay” is inside, under the bed and the shore power input is a twist lock bulkhead fitting on the outside wall so everything out there is exposed. Both times I had a problem with the EMS it was fairly easily worked around but the law of averages will burn me eventually. If/when Progressive gets back to me I will update this thread.

Progressive Industries has a Life Time Warranty.... you won't have any issues getting them to replace it if that is the root cause of your issue.

I used the portable 30A EMS for my last coach and they replaced it without any hesitation when I provided the symptoms and my troubleshooting steps.

Frankly, I would stick with them as this is the first time I have a heard of a potentially defective unit from them.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Judge

Progressive Industries has a Life Time Warranty.... you won't have any issues getting them to replace it if that is the root cause of your issue.

I used the portable 30A EMS for my last coach and they replaced it without any hesitation when I provided the symptoms and my troubleshooting steps.

Frankly, I would stick with them as this is the first time I have a heard of a potentially defective unit from them.

For the record, I concur; it was my 1st time hearing of possible product issue of any EMS that I can recall anyway ( 4 years) . Just made suggestion based on what Progressive initially had him to do; based on what he has been saying.

FWIW, I ultimately chose Southwire because my ATS was Southwire, I am use to buying Southwire electrical from Blue & Orange stores. My 1st Surge Guard was the simple 50 amp protector (no EMS) from Southwire. I never could get pass that little dog being lit up with the Progressive unit when it would be in use. Some people recommended black tape, but that was not for me.

Also, I concede that a hardwired unit was never a real consideration for me for reasons I stated earlier; so I didn't really compare those.

I look forward to learning what Progressive does for OP, or learning what the root cause issue was. OP has troubleshooted quite well. Some of those Lifetime Warranties comes with some fine print that you almost need an attorney to help understand (If you try to read it), normally I don't because in the end game it doesn't make you stop buying because everyone has fine print. That is why I tend to go with name brands and recognition with Progressive & Southwire certainly has that.

[Vibeman]

Thanks to all who replied.
I will keep this thread updated.

-Ken

[Vibeman]

I contacted Progressive Industries tech support about this second incident with their EMS unit. This time he had no questions or suggestions, just a link to their warranty claims page and assurance my unit would be replaced. I filled out the form, they wanted proof of purchase and a photo of the inside of the unit. I received an email a little later saying my claim was accepted and they would send me a new unit in 7-10 days. I was a little surprised because they also said they did not want me to return the old one even though it still works (most of the time). I don’t look forward to crawling back under the bed to replace it, but at least it hasn’t cost me anything. I hope this one is more reliable.
Maybe I will keep the old one as a backup, I could even wire pigtails on it to use as a (non-weather proof) portable emergency unit, although I can’t think of an emergency scenario right now where I would really need it.
-Ken

[javelin]

Thanks for posting a followup on your situation with Prog Industries. I have had the hardwired PI 30 Amp unit in my ACE for about 8 years now and never had any issues. It correctly tripped off on low voltage in a fully booked park once where brown outs were occurring. I am curious why you installed the 30 amp EMS-HW30C instead of the 50 amp EMS-HW50C ? I am assuming your Hurricane has a 50 amp service and generator to match. I am not sure what impact (if any) that might have on the life or normal operation of the EMS unit.
Also in post #2, 16ACE27 makes an excellent suggestion if this ever happens again, to trip off your load breakers in the coach to see if the EMS unit is happy under no load conditions. Then turn on the loads and see what happens.

[sdsstep545]

Hi,
I just went thru this problem with my progressive 50 amp hard wired unit. - it was throwing 04 codes at the state park we were staying at. We were plugged into the 30 amp side with a dogbone adapter. I would get it to stay up and running at about 6amp draw, but above that it would disconnect and throw 04 code - low voltage. We called the campground host about issue. When the electrical person showed up, he said he had just been here two weeks ago fixing the same circuit breaker. He said he could not believe it was bad again. He insisted it must be a bad Protector device on my camper. As he started to work, it became very obvious he had a very weak electrical background. I had to insist it was a bad breaker for him to open the ped up and look at the breaker. I had to show him I could actually run my RV plugged into the 15 amp outlet with an adapter - no problems, but the 30 amp outlet would throw errors on my protector and some times pop the 30 amp breaker. After messing around for awhile he got it opened and then poked around for some time more. Finally he said "I found YOUR problem, The wire was never installed under the screw for the breaker- it was just touching it". This was MY problem he found? What he actually told me was he had no idea what he was doing the first time he switched the breaker out and installed it incorrectly.
One thing I found very useful during this issue was the built in display switching system. It lets me flip from inside display to outside display. I was able to show this person what I was actually seeing while standing outside with him.
So the protector saved our RV and was correct on the error it found.
-Scott

[Vibeman]

Originally Posted by javelin

Thanks for posting a followup on your situation with Prog Industries. I have had the hardwired PI 30 Amp unit in my ACE for about 8 years now and never had any issues. It correctly tripped off on low voltage in a fully booked park once where brown outs were occurring. I am curious why you installed the 30 amp EMS-HW30C instead of the 50 amp EMS-HW50C ? I am assuming your Hurricane has a 50 amp service and generator to match. I am not sure what impact (if any) that might have on the life or normal operation of the EMS unit.
Also in post #2, 16ACE27 makes an excellent suggestion if this ever happens again, to trip off your load breakers in the coach to see if the EMS unit is happy under no load conditions. Then turn on the loads and see what happens.

Our Hurricane 29m has 30a system, hence the 30a EMS.

[Vibeman]

I received my new EMS unit from Progressive yesterday, I am seriously considering using suggestion from dkoldman in above post with modifications for my situation. Since I now have two units I think I will wire pigtails with 30a twist lock connectors on each one and mating connectors on power supply in/out then I will have not only a quick disconnect backup EMS unit but will also have the ability to physically bypass the EMS altogether if needed. All for the price of 6 connectors. I have a lot of space in my electrical bay under the bed to do it all inside, and other than adding more spaghetti in there it should work.
I will probably poke around inside the original EMS a little to see if I can see any obvious problems too. I would like to test it on a low voltage input but don’t have any kind of transformer to do that. Does anyone have a simple way to rig that up? Could I just wire some light bulbs in series ahead of it?

[Vibeman]

I am adding this new problem as a follow up to this post from last July instead of as a new post because I now think it is related. I am still not sure exactly how this could happen, but maybe some of the excellent electrical guys here can offer suggestions. As you read my description of this new problem please keep in mind the problem this post originally addressed. I know this is a lot of reading so I do not blame anyone if they pass on it.

I have had a situation a couple of times lately where I am plugged into shore power at home, the blue power indicator on the outside plug is lit but there is no power in my coach. I am using a 20a feeder circuit with a purchased twist lock adaptor. With the molded red adapter fully locked into the coach fitting with the threaded ring I can pull the yellow plug 1/2 way off and put my probes on all 3 blades coming out of the adaptor. Using a simple test light I get 120v a/c from hot to common and hot to ground but no juice at the EMS input. Then I could wiggle the yellow plug or plug/unplug it and after a few tries the power would come on in the coach. Seemed pretty strange for the red adapter prongs to be fully energized on the outside but not sending current down the wires. Yesterday I decided to troubleshoot this issue. I got out my meter and started checking. I am not an “electrician” but have many years of electrical experience. The first thing I did was to pull out the receptacle on the motor home to gain access to the #10 awg wires feeding the EMS. To my initial surprise I found the neutral and ground wires REVERSED!! (See photo). I say “initial surprise” because I then remembered that the dealership replaced this receptacle under warranty soon after I bought the rig because the blue indicator light wasn’t working. If you want to take the time to read this original post you will find that at two different campgrounds My EMS would not connect to the pedestal, one of the campground maintenance guys plugged his portable EMS into his pedestal, plugged my coach into his EMS and got two faults: “reversed polarity” and “reversed ground”. Now I can see that was correct! But why was this only a problem at two of the 20 or more parks we have plugged in at over the last 3 years? Could the reversed wire connections somehow be the cause this new problem too? It was getting late last night so I just put the wires back where they belonged, screwed the receptacle back on and plugged it in. The EMS connected immediately. I could wiggle the yellow plug all around, and pull it almost all the way off without loosing power in the coach. I will appreciate any and all comments, ideas, and suggestions about this. Thanks.
-Ken

[JimOIB]

The tech that “fixed” your coach receptacle took a shortcut and didn’t want to troubleshoot the coach. The wiring should be corrected and then find the problem in the coach. Time for your VOM to trace the white and ground wires back through the ATS and into the power center. Does power from the genset work fine? If so, my money is a wiring mistake on the shore power side of the ATS. Or you have a grounding/bonding issue that needs to be fixed.

[Vibeman]

Thanks for your reply, but perhaps I wasn’t clear. I have already found and corrected the wiring mistake made by the tech two years ago and I think all is well now. I just want to know why my EMS only had a problem with the ground and neutral reversed at two parks but not the rest.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Vibeman

Thanks for your reply, but perhaps I wasn’t clear. I have already found and corrected the wiring mistake made by the tech two years ago and I think all is well now. I just want to know why my EMS only had a problem with the ground and neutral reversed at two parks but not the rest.

Here's my guess:

the ground and neutral are required to be bonded at the power source. In your home that means the main power panel. I don't know if they are required to be bonded at the campground pedestal - I suspect not but I also know those pedestals are usually not wired or maintained by electricians. So if they are bonded at the pedestal the EMS probably can't see the difference between the two.