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Old 07-06-2019, 06:21 PM   #21
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THOR #10907
I was just thinking about the amount of table changes I mentioned between what 5 Star does and what I did to my particular RV. I need to qualify those numbers with what the rest of "tuning" is all about. The ECM in the Ford V10 is itself VERY primitive and basic. To give you all an idea of what professional "tuners" have to deal with on the rest of the vehicles on the track and road, I looked at a couple of my other tunes...


Ford V10 calibration changes made by 5 Star...

22 Engine tables modified.
42 Transmission tables modified.


What I changed in my particular Ford V10...

59 Engine tables modified.
71 Transmission tables modified.


Changes I made in a Pirelli World Challenge GTS car...

132 Engine tables modified.
(Manual trans, no TCM.)


Changes I made in my daily driven ~550hp LS3 SS...

237 Engine tables modified.
(Manual trans, no TCM.)


Changes I made in my 800+hp LSA...

470 Engine tables modified.
(Manual trans, no TCM.)



So yeah, the Ford V10 engine management is pretty primitive. lol.

This is what just a couple of these calibration tables looks like... Everyone of those individual "cells" can be modified and it will change the characteristics of the engine operation. Change a few of those values wrong in a few of those cells and it could cost an engine.
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Old 07-06-2019, 07:35 PM   #22
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THOR #1295
Getting rid of the 76 mph govenor

I just want to get rid of the 76 mph governor. Dangerous in my opinion when going down a steep grade or wanting to get a run for the next large hill.

5 star told me they can do that. Any other tuner allow this?
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Old 07-06-2019, 08:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nursx2 View Post
I just want to get rid of the 76 mph governor. Dangerous in my opinion when going down a steep grade or wanting to get a run for the next large hill.

5 star told me they can do that. Any other tuner allow this?
Pretty much any tuning hardware/software can edit the max speed, that's an easy one. Here's what that looks like on the '17 E450 2V. It must be lower on the F53 3V if you're saying yours is at 76.

There is something to consider though when talking about max speeds in these rigs. It's not just about tires, it's mostly about the driveshaft. These rigs have super long driveshafts that are not made or sourced by Ford. Long driveshafts can turn into spaghetti when they're spun too fast. So 76 mph might be close to the safe limit for the driveshafts in an F53, I don't personally know. The link I'll put here is an example of what happens when you run certain GM trucks over 100mph...

https://youtu.be/M8Kjuk6KXMA
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:33 PM   #24
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Thanks so much.

I understand about the max speed but it is a PAIN in the hills of north Carolina when I have semi's on my ass in the outside lane. I would lik eit set to 85 like yours.

Do you recommend and specific tuners so I can accomplish this?

I have a Foxwell coming in the mail next week for my daughters 328I and it will cost $60.00 to get the Ford software on it.

Darren
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Old 07-06-2019, 11:43 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nursx2 View Post
Thanks so much.

I understand about the max speed but it is a PAIN in the hills of north Carolina when I have semi's on my ass in the outside lane. I would lik eit set to 85 like yours.

Do you recommend and specific tuners so I can accomplish this?

I have a Foxwell coming in the mail next week for my daughters 328I and it will cost $60.00 to get the Ford software on it.

Darren
If you're talking about "specific tuners" being people, just about any of them can do a simple max speed limiter change. If you drive your rig to the person, they can make that change with their hardware and you would only have to pay for the tune file itself. If it's not local, you have to buy or rent hardware to load somebody's tune file into your rig.

If you meant actual tuning hardware/software, the SCT X4 costs $400 but you still have to buy a tune file from somebody. HPTuners MPVI2 costs $300, the license to tune one vehicle is another $100. So for the same $400 price as SCT, with HPTuners you can actually make that change YOURSELF. The scanning and logging software in HPTuners is miles ahead of what SCT has also.

I could go on for pages about this tuning stuff, just let me know if anyone cares. haha. IF you want to simply buy a piece of hardware that already has a "tune" in it that you simply load in and go, places like 5 Star are the way to go. IF you want to actually know what's being changed, make changes yourself or know somebody that can build a tune file for you, HPTuners is the right option. BTW the Foxwell hardware will only read codes, nothing more. It should read the Generic OBDII codes from your Ford even without paying the extra $60 for access to the OEM codes.
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Old 07-07-2019, 05:18 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz View Post
Fun fact for you guys while I think of it...





All engines need some sort of Power Enrichment when under load. Ford delays this power enrichment for 60 seconds in the stock calibrations. Meaning you have to have your foot to the floor for 60 seconds straight until the engine gets the additional fuel it needs to run properly. Let off for a second and the 60 second timer resets. They do this for emission reasons.



That's bad enough, but there's another factor that even most engine tuners don't know... The Ford V10 WILL NOT go into Power Enrichment when the cruise control is being used. Ever. Yikes! The engine calibrations use Pedal Position for PE, instead of actual Throttle Position like GM does. So if the cruise is on, for many things like PE, the ECM thinks you're at closed throttle because the pedal is at 0%. Pretty stupid on Ford's part.



So the lesson is, do not use cruise control when you're in any kind of heavy load/climbing situations.


Well THAT explains why Im so very much happier driving without cruise control in high winds and mountains! I like my 5 Star tune but really, only for the shift point changes. With CC it will try to maintain vehicle speed within a very small range and often drop into third gear at 60mph when fourth gear at 55 mph is a happier place to be and easy to do with the foot. Ive wondered why the CC cant do the same but you explain it perfectly.

Does using tow/haul mode alter use of PE mode?

I think that when most folks say the engine loves to rev they are not speaking of its technical performance but just noting that it happens a lot with our rigs because they downshift so often at highway speeds. It may not optimize anything but its certainly what we experience.
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Old 07-07-2019, 05:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Does using tow/haul mode alter use of PE mode?

No, tow/haul mode has no direct effect on PE mode.

It's all tied to pedal position on these particular engines. In the stock Ford engine calibrations, PE does not come on until your foot has physically pushed the pedal down past 90% for a full, uninterrupted 60 seconds. (Sorry to yell, I just wanted everyone to fully understand exactly how it works. lol.)

This is a really big deal because if an engine doesn't get proper power enrichment it runs dangerously lean, creates excessive heat, is FAR more apt to knock or ping and of course won't make the power it's capable of. The fact that Ford tied PE to pedal position is pretty crazy. Most every other OEM has it tied to actual engine loads, throttle position or a combination of both pedal and tps inputs. Having it tied to pedal position makes the way some aftermarket companies modify those engine calibrations even more inefficient. Like I said earlier, if you tune the engine so that the throttle goes wide open when your foot is only half way to the floor, the engine will NEVER see PE in those situations. You can show power increases in a dyno chart, but when the customers are actually driving, you've actually REDUCED the power from stock levels by basically disabling PE. Scary stuff.
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Old 07-07-2019, 06:02 PM   #28
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Well, here goes...

I know these screen shots of logs can look intimidating, but they are extremely powerful tools to show the things I'm trying to explain. This picture is a log from a Ford V10 tuned by ________. (Should I come right out and say the company name? I believe knowledge is power. I believe people have a right to knowledge. I don't believe in secrets. But will coming right out and posting screenshots like this and saying exactly what company did this come back to bite me? Idk. I'm not sure I care enough about the possible consequences to keep my knowledge from helping others though. hmmm.)

At the top of this chart you can see I'm logging "Throttle %" and "Pedal %". The "throttle" is the actual percentage that the throttle blade on the engine is at. The "pedal" is the actual percentage that your foot is pushing down the gas pedal. Like I mentioned before, they aren't always at a 1:1 ratio. Logging the relationship between these two sensors is vital to proper tuning.

In this section of the log you can see the throttle is wide open- 100%. You can also see that at the cursor point the pedal is at 38%. If you look at the traces, you can see that as the pedal was pushed down about 1/4 of the way, throttle and pedal followed very closely. At 25% the throttle starts to go wide open as the pedal is still only going from 25 to 38%. The throttle stays wide open even though the pedal stays around half way down. Everyone see that? lol.

Ok so the next part is the mixture. Lambda 1.0 is stoich, it's the air fuel mixture that engines run efficiently at when under light loads. When engines are under heavier loads, the Lambda needs to go lower (richer) to keep the engine in it's efficient range for making power. These Lambda numbers can be anywhere from .90 down to .70 depending on the particular engine. So what this log is showing is that even though the engine is at full throttle, and it's trying to make max power (360 ft/lb torque being shown), the exhaust is showing it's running at Lambda 1.0 or stoich. PE is NOT activated even though the engine is WOT. Remember, stock PE enable is 90% PEDAL position. 5 Star modifies that to 80%. The pedal is at roughly 50% that whole pull.

Does all that make sense? Does anyone care? haha. Here's the screenshot...
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Old 07-07-2019, 06:40 PM   #29
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This is what a happy engine should look like...

The pedal is half way down. The throttle is only at 28% since it's easily making the requested power without going wide open (showing 337 ft/lbs).

The load is reading 69%, it needs extra fuel at that load. (The stock Ford V10 maxes out at roughly 80% absolute load. It's not a value that goes to 100% unless the engine has forced induction.) The Lambda is showing .93/.94, just perfect for that amount of load. If you look at the trace, you can see the mixture follows LOAD, not pedal. That's what it's supposed to do.

The LTFT's are at 0, the ignition timing is at an efficient and safe spot, and the engine is making 337 ft/lbs of torque at 1/4 throttle at not even 1900rpm! That's a happy engine. That's a vehicle with a gas pedal that closely relates to the actual power delivered instead of simply an on-off switch.
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Old 07-08-2019, 03:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz View Post
No, tow/haul mode has no direct effect on PE mode.



It's all tied to pedal position on these particular engines. In the stock Ford engine calibrations, PE does not come on until your foot has physically pushed the pedal down past 90% for a full, uninterrupted 60 seconds. (Sorry to yell, I just wanted everyone to fully understand exactly how it works. lol.)



This is a really big deal because if an engine doesn't get proper power enrichment it runs dangerously lean, creates excessive heat, is FAR more apt to knock or ping and of course won't make the power it's capable of. The fact that Ford tied PE to pedal position is pretty crazy. Most every other OEM has it tied to actual engine loads, throttle position or a combination of both pedal and tps inputs. Having it tied to pedal position makes the way some aftermarket companies modify those engine calibrations even more inefficient. Like I said earlier, if you tune the engine so that the throttle goes wide open when your foot is only half way to the floor, the engine will NEVER see PE in those situations. You can show power increases in a dyno chart, but when the customers are actually driving, you've actually REDUCED the power from stock levels by basically disabling PE. Scary stuff.


This is really interesting and, as you say, somewhat scary. So it appears that with either stock or 5 Star the take away for mountain or other high load driving (which is most of the time with a big gasser!)is to avoid using cruise control because it wont move the pedal enough to engage PE. And in manual driving to use all of the pedal travel while keeping the vehicle speed low enough that engine revs generally stay around 4,000. I tried that on todays drive and its actually not difficult. A bit slower than I might otherwise drive but not bad. Alternatively you could manually flog the beast like a rented mule using the full pedal to drive 70+ mph. It would often be turning as much as 5,000 rpm which apparently isnt ideal from a power perspective but at least youd not be scary lean. And youd get dreadful mileage. With the former strategy the vehicle accelerates easily because the engine is happy and you have to let up if you want to keep the rpm at around 4,000. With the stock tune you might not time out the 60 second delay and never enter PE.

Or did I totally misread your posts?

Thank you for the education. My old brain is trying to learn new stuff here!
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Old 07-08-2019, 05:15 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete'sMH View Post
This is really interesting and, as you say, somewhat scary. So it appears that with either stock or 5 Star the take away for mountain or other high load driving (which is most of the time with a big gasser!)is to avoid using cruise control because it wont move the pedal enough to engage PE. And in manual driving to use all of the pedal travel while keeping the vehicle speed low enough that engine revs generally stay around 4,000. I tried that on todays drive and its actually not difficult. A bit slower than I might otherwise drive but not bad. Alternatively you could manually flog the beast like a rented mule using the full pedal to drive 70+ mph. It would often be turning as much as 5,000 rpm which apparently isnt ideal from a power perspective but at least youd not be scary lean. And youd get dreadful mileage. With the former strategy the vehicle accelerates easily because the engine is happy and you have to let up if you want to keep the rpm at around 4,000. With the stock tune you might not time out the 60 second delay and never enter PE.


Or did I totally misread your posts?

Thank you for the education. My old brain is trying to learn new stuff here!
No, you got it!

Yeah Ford could have made it much easier on us all if they simply did what GM has been doing for years, full manual control of the auto transmission. The Ford trucks get it, but the vans and F53's, the ones that really need it, don't get it. If you could pick your own gear and stay in it no matter what the throttle or pedal is doing, you could manage rpm's and PE a little better.

I actually gave my Ford a "selectable" 5th by programming the trans calibrations for tow/haul to basically lock out 6th gear and also made the downshift to 4th harder to get to when in tow/haul. That way if I want to drop from 6th to 5th, all I have to do is hit the tow/haul switch. I've actually gotten my trans shift scheduling so nice that I rarely need to touch the shifter or engage tow/haul. It just shifts up or down to the perfect gear for whatever given speed/pedal/load I'm ever at.

Here's another fun fact...

If you're driving with the cruise control on and it's going WOT to maintain speed, as I've said, the PE will never engage even after the 60 seconds. Guess what happens when you push the pedal to the floor while the cruise is engaged? Yup, PE mode WILL engage, after the 60 second time out of course if you're stock. Let off the pedal and it will go back out of PE, even though it's still WOT and trying to maintain speed.

So for those of you with the 5 Star tune, try doing just that. Set cruise control while pulling an incline so it has to bury the throttle to maintain the set speed. With your foot OFF the pedal, it will not be in PE. Now push the pedal to the floor and see if you can feel any power difference. (There's actually a ton more to this because you'd be going from running the engine TOO LEAN to running the engine TOO RICH, so the power difference won't be that noticeable. 5 Star also doesn't change the ignition timing AT ALL from stock, so the additional ignition timing needed along with that additional fuel won't be there.)
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Old 07-08-2019, 08:02 PM   #32
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So are you saying if your going up a steep incline and your already WOT (for longer than 60 seconds) and you still have a long ways to go that you should lift off the throttle then WOT again (and after 60 seconds) you will have more POWER?

I guess I can see this if your loosing speed fast (and your below the Speed limit already).

And the tow / haul mode only take you out 6th gear? I think it downshifts quicker for stoping too....dont it? Does it change how long it holds each gear when accelerating as well?

I have not used mine yet (Had no reason too - yet).

What else does the the tow / haul mode do for us?
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Old 07-08-2019, 09:55 PM   #33
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I dont want to hijack the thread but I find this to be really good stuff. Driving near Denver today I explored some of this. I sort of think that driving with the cruise control off you might be ok (5 speed transmission). I found that I use most of the pedal pretty regularly. I have the 5 Star tune and , if I read this thread right, I go into PE at 80% pedal. Its pretty hard to know where that is exactly but I think I go there regularly in these mountains. I think I read that 5 Star reduces the 60 second timer which probably is good because its pretty difficult to keep the pedal down for that long because you get to going too fast.

Id like to further tweak my transmissions shift strategy. Id like to reduce the tendency to drop into third gear when fourth works fine at speeds above about 55. That way I could hold WOT (and pedal) on the hills with the rpm staying reasonable. Not a big deal though.

I have a scan gauge back home and I wonder if you can use it to check fuel air mix. Id like to see whats actually going on and when PE happens.

One more question, does altitude play any role in all this? Or is that all compensated for?
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Old 07-09-2019, 05:52 PM   #34
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L&W... You're almost there, try re-reading what I wrote about the 60 second timer maybe. The take away is if you're climbing a long grade, just try to keep an even pedal, no matter what that percentage is. Lots of people tend to go on and off the gas pedal when they drive, this is a perfect example of how it really screws with the engine calibrations/operation.

Pete... Altitude is compensated all on it's own, it has little to do with PE. So in other words, if you're climbing a grade at 12k feet and it's not in PE, your engine would still not be getting the optimum fueling it needs for full power.

And yes, you can absolutely watch when PE comes in on your scan gauge. If it has a PID for PE that makes it easy, but it might not have that PID. It should have PID's for the o2 sensors though, which btw are actually widebands on the late model V10's, which is an awesome thing. Just look for anything that looks like "o2 sensor Bank 1(or 2 or 3)/Sensor 1". There will be a sensor that's post cat, it's usually called "sensor 2". You can see PE in the post cat one actually, but it will react slower and since it's a narrowband the voltage in PE will be around .9v. So monitor that front o2 Lambda (doesn't matter which bank) and you should see around Lambda ~1.0 most of the time. When it's in PE it will go down to the low .90's or even the low .80's possibly. That tells you it's in PE. If you watch it on decel, you'll see the Lambda go to it's max of ~2.0 which is telling you you're in DFCO (decel fuel cut-off).

Have fun!
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:24 PM   #35
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Ok, thanks.... what about my tow / haul questions? What all is affected when in Tow haul mode? Up and down shift points? and NO 6th gear when activated? Anything else? should we use this going down a mtn (even if NOT towing)? Or not needed?
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:29 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Long & Winding road View Post
Ok, thanks.... what about my tow / haul questions? What all is affected when in Tow haul mode? Up and down shift points? and NO 6th gear when activated? Anything else? should we use this going down a mtn (even if NOT towing)? Or not needed?
Oh sorry, I missed that one!

MY tow/haul is different than YOUR tow/haul. I have mine set up so that it locks out 6th gear. Yours will still go into 6th, just at a higher speed/pedal percentage.

I personally didn't like using the tow/haul as it was stock. The downshifts are pretty obnoxious and will end up revving the engine to 5k at times. I'm sure there's been a ton written on here about tow/haul. If you haven't felt a need for it, don't worry about using it.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:49 PM   #37
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This is probably the most informative post on the internet right now.

So bottom line it for us:
Six speed trans models... Is there anything but the slightest seat of the pants value to buying a tuned program(staying purposefully away from company names)?
Because that's how I'm reading it... Average Joe gets little effect.

Five speed models... A nicer 'feel' to the trans, but any real value?

I have a, long involved, black bear tune on my 8.1 gm. Done by the considered best, by him, in person, at his shop. Its a huge difference in engine and trans.
I was told to save my money on a stock 5.3 because it did a reality based small amount of real change.

I'm.seeing some placebo here for the 6speed v10 crowd.
I posted about my. 8.1 and I have a 4.3 tune, so I won't be considered anti-tune. I'm anti-hyperbole....
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:59 PM   #38
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Not to derail my own thread, but L&W I think we talked about headlights at one time? This is my "final" (lol) revision of my Vegas headlights. Hella 7" H4 high/low beams with LED's, Hella 500's with LED's, additional LED low beams/DRL's in the middles that have amber LED surrounds for the turn signals. On high beams every light on the front is on. On low beams, it's only the Hella 7" pair. The 4" low beam/DRL's are on whenever the ignition is on. The lower flat/wide LED's are on a switch and they can also be on during low beam use without being flashed by oncoming cars. The lower round LED's come on when high beams are on.

They're HELLA bright (ugh) and the best part? I completely gutted the Ford headlight wiring so I could design my own system THAT TURNS ON AUTOMATICALLY WHEN IT'S DARK. Imagine that! Something our GM cars have been doing since the late '80's. lol.
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:35 PM   #39
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2017 Axis 25.4
State: Arkansas
Posts: 2,610
THOR #12231
Yep, that was me about the headlights. Yours looks awesome.

I went the plug and play option with replacement LED bulbs for headlights and drving (fog) lights. They work well... much better than stock which is what I was going for.

But I like the Idea of having them come on at night on auto (and turning off automatically when engine is off).

Now that my LED's have a cooling fan in them when I get out of the RV I can hear them running so I turn them off..... So that kinda works for me (for now).

I also like the idea of having the lower driving (fog) lights used as my DRL. Would this be hard for the avg Joe to do?
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2017 Axis / 25.4: Big Foot Levelers, Aims 1200 Watt inverter, Ceramic Window Tint, Full River AGM 6V batteries, Front Hellwig Sway bar / Rear Track Arm, Safe T Plus Steering Stabilizer, PD 4655 converter, Hard Wired Surge Guard, WEboost + WiFi Ranger, LED Headlights/Driving lights, TPMS, Surge tank, Tornado flush, Viair Compressor
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Old 07-09-2019, 07:39 PM   #40
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Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Vegas 27.7
State: California
Posts: 289
THOR #10907
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
This is probably the most informative post on the internet right now.

Lol. Thanks.

So bottom line it for us:
Six speed trans models... Is there anything but the slightest seat of the pants value to buying a tuned program(staying purposefully away from company names)?
Because that's how I'm reading it... Average Joe gets little effect.

I could list exactly what changes are made by a few companies in a few aftermarket tunes, but the short answer (on engine tuning specifically) would be yes, it's a lot of "feels stronger" and not a lot of "is actually stronger".


Five speed models... A nicer 'feel' to the trans, but any real value?

I haven't actually looked at an aftermarket tune for the 5 speed, but yes, I'd tend to agree with that. I doubt the engine calibration changes are very significant, if at all.

I have a, long involved, black bear tune on my 8.1 gm. Done by the considered best, by him, in person, at his shop. Its a huge difference in engine and trans.
I was told to save my money on a stock 5.3 because it did a reality based small amount of real change.

I'm.seeing some placebo here for the 6speed v10 crowd.
I posted about my. 8.1 and I have a 4.3 tune, so I won't be considered anti-tune. I'm anti-hyperbole....
The trans changes made by the aftermarket tune companies seems to be well liked, even on the 6 speeds. I did extensive changes to my trans calibrations on my 6 speed, it's immensely better everywhere. Even the 6 speed does some "stupid" stuff, especially in tow/haul mode. If somebody buys an aftermarket tune and it makes them like the shifting better, then it's worth the money.

And yeah, I know who Blackbear is. I looked through some of his tunes over a decade ago and talked to him way back when briefly. I've been doing this stuff for a little while. lol.
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