Lithium battery fires.

[Bob Denman]

I think we got from E-Bike battery fires; to discussing coach batteries in record time!
Oh look!! There goes a squirrel!

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

I think we got from E-Bike battery fires; to discussing coach batteries in record time!
Oh look!! There goes a squirrel!

So does this mean that I can add E- bikes, with Lithium batteries to my list of what not to buy. I have enough to worry about already

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

I think we got from E-Bike battery fires; to discussing coach batteries in record time!
Oh look!! There goes a squirrel!

LiFePO4’s for coaches aren’t the only batteries with a BMS.

I’m pretty sure the batteries in my Pedego eBikes also have a BMS.

A good BMS and battery desigb can prevent situations where a fire can occur…. Coach…. ebikes…. etc.

[ducksface]

I have a tiny, half a snickers bar size, battery having a full featured bms.

My ebike has two battery packs and two seperate bms.

[16ACE27]

"Go electric" they said


"Completely safe" they said

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r-yN8SugWM

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

"Go electric" they said


"Completely safe" they said

I guess that is what happens when you let SOC dip below 50% under some loads

[Chateau_Nomad]

For every positive agenda there's likely an equal and opposite negative agenda, especially considering the financial interests involved in the energy sector. Read between the lines...

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

For every positive agenda there's likely an equal and opposite negative agenda, especially considering the financial interests involved in the energy sector. Read between the lines...

You think so.... It is good time for Lithium Battery Safety. I will try to avoid the RV Lithium Battery topic with emphasis on my 40v lithiums and of course what goes into ebikes. But Lithium is Lithium.

Lithium-ion batteries are extremely sensitive to high temperatures and inherently flammable. The Lithium battery packs tend to degrade much faster than they normally would, due to heat. If a lithium-ion battery pack fails, it will burst into flames and can cause widespread damage.

Quick Research:
Let’s look at the some of the ways lithium-ion batteries catch fire.

A. Manufacturing Defects

Flaws in production can cause metallic particles (impurities) to seep into the lithium-ion cell during the manufacturing process. Battery manufacturers need to ensure stringently controlled cleanrooms for manufacturing batteries.

Another defect could be the thinning of separators which could prove detrimental in actual use. Cells should undergo strict quality-control tests and validation before being sold.

B. Design Flaws

Car companies want to design their cars as sleek and slim while giving the maximum range and performance. These requirements push battery pack manufacturers to come up with compact designs by packing high-capacity cells into a smaller body, messing with an otherwise well-built battery.

Compromising on the design can cause damage to the electrodes or the separator. Either of which could result in a short circuit. Further, the absence of a proper cooling system or vent can cause battery temperatures to rise as the flammable electrolyte heats up.

If uncontrolled, it could result in a chain reaction of cell failures, causing the battery to heat up even more and spiral out of control.

C. Abnormal or Improper Usage

External factors like keeping the battery very close to a heat source or near a fire can cause it to explode. Penetrating the battery pack either deliberately or through an accident is bound to cause a short circuit and the battery to catch fire. That’s why unauthorized disassembly of the battery pack in electric vehicles leads to the lapse of warranty.

Users are advised to only get the batteries checked and repaired from the car maker’s authorized service centers. Even high-voltage charging or excessive discharging of the battery could damage it.

D. Charger Issues

Using poorly insulated chargers can damage the battery. If the charger shorts or generates heat near the battery, it can do enough damage to cause failure.

While lithium-ion batteries have built-in protections to stop them from overcharging, using unofficial chargers can damage the battery in the long term.

E. Low-quality components

In addition to manufacturing defects, using low-quality components is one of the highest causes of battery failures. Increasing competition is driving the prices of batteries down, causing battery manufacturers to cut corners where they shouldn’t. By skimping on poor quality electronics like the battery management system, the risk of battery failure increases.

The battery management system is critical to battery safety and performance. It protects the battery pack from operating outside of its safe operating area. As batteries form a high-value component of an electric vehicle or energy storage system, it’s essential to invest in a smart battery management system that can detect cell failures immediately and prevent the battery from exploding.

[Judge]

GM had to tell customers to park their EV’s outside their homes because of this risk after a few cars ignited.

I imagine there will be some EV’s that burst into flames in peoples homes eventually. It will be tragic if people lose lives.

The attorneys out there are probably licking their chops while waiting in the shadows so the lawsuits can begin.

Batteries have already brought down airplanes. It will be interesting to see if they find the technology to prevent fires.

[sportcoupe]

The batteries you read about exploding or catching fire are typically NMC or LCO chemistry.

In general, LFP batteries are consider safe. This is the chemistry of drop in replacement such as Battleborn or DIY lithium batteries.

All lithium batteries are not made the same way. They have vastly different chemical makeups.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by sportcoupe

The batteries you read about exploding or catching fire are typically NMC or LCO chemistry.

In general, LFP batteries are consider safe. This is the chemistry of drop in replacement such as Battleborn or DIY lithium batteries.

All lithium batteries are not made the same way. They have vastly different chemical makeups.

So, Lithium is not Lithium?

Yeah, you can see the French bus company took their other busses out of service after this fire. Wish they would have mentioned which kind of lithium batteries they used.

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by Judge

It all comes down to having a good BMS. I have BigBattery LiFePO'4 in my coach and this chart shows how their BMS and other designs prevent a catastrophic failure under most conditions. They even have built-in fire extinguishers in some of their models.

Wow great information.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by sportcoupe;347950[B

]The batteries you read about exploding or catching fire are typically NMC or LCO chemistry.
[/B]
In general, LFP batteries are consider safe. This is the chemistry of drop in replacement such as Battleborn or DIY lithium batteries.

All lithium batteries are not made the same way. They have vastly different chemical makeups.

Could that be a function of the fact that they are the most prominent types of Lithium batteries used mobile phone, laptops, ebike, power tools? I would have to see some failure rate or MTBF data broken down by product type. The list I posed earlier explains why ANY Lithium may fail. The design and flaws with manufacturing processes are factors, but it is not an absolute to one type of Lithium or the other.

While we talking exploding batteries... truth be told, I don't own a 2018 ACE 29.3 today, because the FLA batteries exploded in the battery compartment (didn't catch fire) but corroded everything inside including the floor and the hydraulic pump contrary to what I read a lot on this site, I was one of the few lucky ones that actually took serious the PDI as that is when I caught it. The Dealer said they would replace the batteries, but not repair the damage, TMC said it was damage from misuse sitting on Dealers lot, I forgot who makes the hydraulic pump, but I sent them pictures and they told me that if the pump ever failed it would not be covered under the warranty, just based on the obvious corrosion and misuse.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Judge

GM had to tell customers to park their EV’s outside their homes because of this risk after a few cars ignited.

I imagine there will be some EV’s that burst into flames in peoples homes eventually. It will be tragic if people lose lives.

The attorneys out there are probably licking their chops while waiting in the shadows so the lawsuits can begin.

Batteries have already brought down airplanes. It will be interesting to see if they find the technology to prevent fires.

Wow this is a game changer, I have narrowed my options down to a 1980 4-speed manual Ford Pinto, or some Lithium based EV that I can safely park outside of my garage

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Wow this is a game changer, I have narrowed my options down to a 1980 4-speed manual Ford Pinto, or some Lithium based EV that I can safely park outside of my garage

Why not consider a 66 or 67 Chevy Corvair?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

Why not consider a 66 or 67 Chevy Corvair?

That was before my time, and besides just like the their Trucks, everyone prefers a Ford to Chevy. If it is not a Ford, it is NOT a better Idea

[Chance]

I still have a Classic Mustang with relatively large fuel tank just ahead of rear bumper. At least the trunk has its own bottom, unlike a few that relied on fuel tank as trunk bottom. In an accident, fuel is less likely to enter passenger compartment.

In mine the gasoline filler tube still goes unprotected through trunk. Safety is relative — at least my Mustang is not as bad as vehicles with propane or gas cans hanging off the back.



By the way, with all the millions of lithium-powered tools in homes and businesses, how often do they really cause fires? In case of E-bikes, I fear some may be Do-It-Yourself built on a budget and thus poorly, or else modified for extra power and speed which could lead to overloading and excessive heat.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chance

I still have a Classic Mustang with relatively large fuel tank just ahead of rear bumper. At least the trunk has its own bottom, unlike a few that relied on fuel tank as trunk bottom. In an accident, fuel is less likely to enter passenger compartment.

In mine the gasoline filler tube still goes unprotected through trunk. Safety is relative — at least my Mustang is not as bad as vehicles with propane or gas cans hanging off the back.



By the way, with all the millions of lithium-powered tools in homes and businesses, how often do they really cause fires? In case of E-bikes, I fear some may be Do-It-Yourself built on a budget and thus poorly, or else modified for extra power and speed which could lead to overloading and excessive heat.

The reported fires were started during charging. Nothing to do with performance.

As a note, about 4 weeks ago on I95 there was a Tesla on fire. I just thought it was another car fire. I also saw one about 3 weeks ago in an interstate construction area stripped to the shell that more than likely broke down and was stripped before it could be towed off the highway.

[Beau388]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

That was before my time, and besides just like the their Trucks, everyone prefers a Ford to Chevy. If it is not a Ford, it is NOT a better Idea

Not all Chevy trucks are the same. I know of no Ford 3/4 ton truck with a flat cab floor and a ten foot long bed in a 15 foot long package, that weighs 2,400 lbs and gets 26 mpg on the highway and 19 mpg around town. Traded my 1955 Ford F-1 1/2 ton for it in 1985.

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Beau388

Not all Chevy trucks are the same. I know of no Ford 3/4 ton truck with a flat cab floor and a ten foot long bed in a 15 foot long package, that weighs 2,400 lbs and gets 26 mpg on the highway and 19 mpg around town. Traded my 1955 Ford F-1 1/2 ton for it in 1985.

That was Chevy’s answer to the Ford Econoline Pickup.