battery - axis 24.1

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by belfastboy

My mechanic suggested that as the unit is stored for 6 months and only fired up monthly it would help the battery life by having the solar trickle. He advised that auto batteries when not used create sulphur crystals that accumulate and slowly kill the battery amps. This can be avoided by having a slow charge that engages the battery. It seems a good fix for $40 ...if they work??? My understanding is even if I install the kill switch it will not prevent the build up of these crystals that slowly choke the battery.

Hmm I wonder if he was talking about "sulfation":
Sulfation and How to Prevent it - Battery University

What is sulfation? During use, small sulfate crystals form, but these are normal and are not harmful. During prolonged charge deprivation, however, the amorphous lead sulfate converts to a stable crystalline and deposits on the negative plates. This leads to the development of large crystals that reduce the battery’s active material, which is responsible for the performance.

Note the "prolonged charge deprivation": storing it for extended periods with low or no charge..

[DocMike]

Jamie,

The old "Sulfate Dead" batteries, I know about that one! It can occure with Harris Batteries and WFCO Charger/Converter...and it is buyer beware!

Belfastboy, check your unit and do what you can to avoid "Sulfation".

Doc

[belfastboy]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Hmm I wonder if he was talking about "sulfation":
Sulfation and How to Prevent it - Battery University

Note the "prolonged charge deprivation": storing it for extended periods with low or no charge..

Yes, the mechanic was referring to 'sulfation'. I will check the link and learn what I can, thank you.

[Oneilkeys]

I fixed it.... With a lot of advice. Turns out the Trombetta is good, the BIRD is good and Thor installed it incorrectly. What a surprise. I never would have thought that. Right!

I emailed the Trombetta rep who basically told me that if the Trombetta was working, it was working, the Trombetta doesn't need the 13.3v, it will open at 8v at 77 degrees. The BIRD needs the 13.3v to tell the Trombetta to open. So that eliminated the Trombetta as the problem since it was charging both batteries using the engine alternator. Then I emailed the BIRD rep who was very helpful, answered multiple questions and sent me a sheet on the new 956 BIRD installed in the 2016s (attached). Basically, after several discussions had told me to break apart the wiring harness (��) and test the voltage coming thru the red wire from the coach. I told him I would cut the wire and test it. I asked him that if the voltage thu the red wire was not the same as at the coach batteries, could I hook the red wire from the BIRD directly to the coach batteries? He would not answer directly, but thought I was headed in the right direction. I then called Thor and they really have no idea where that red wire terminates. They thought it might be connected to Fuse 5, but I tested that and it was not. I asked the same question about connecting the red wire directly to the coach batteries and they said they thought so.

I gathered my courage and cut the red wire and measured the voltage coming from the coach. It read 12.1v when the coach batteries read 12.6. Plugged into shore power and the coach batteries read 13.6 and the red wire still read 12v. I don't know where the red wire is attached, but it is not to the coach batteries. I then connected the red wire from the BIRD to the left post of the Trombetta (the coach battery side) and, what do you know, the Trombetta opened and the chassis battery is now charging off of shore power. Will wonders never cease!

I sure learned a lot about Trombettas and Potted BIRDs and an even better appreciation for fully checking everything in the coach during your walk thru at the dealers before you purchase. Before my recent purchase I had my volt meter and I checked to make sure that the alternator and shore power and the generator all charged the house batteries and that all electrical systems worked on shore power and on the generator and stand alone. But I never checked to see if shore power/generator charged the chassis battery. Live and learn and another item for Ed's checklist.

[andy]

Originally Posted by Oneilkeys

I fixed it.... With a lot of advice. Turns out the Trombetta is good, the BIRD is good and Thor installed it incorrectly. What a surprise. I never would have thought that. Right!

I emailed the Trombetta rep who basically told me that if the Trombetta was working, it was working, the Trombetta doesn't need the 13.3v, it will open at 8v at 77 degrees. The BIRD needs the 13.3v to tell the Trombetta to open. So that eliminated the Trombetta as the problem since it was charging both batteries using the engine alternator. Then I emailed the BIRD rep who was very helpful, answered multiple questions and sent me a sheet on the new 956 BIRD installed in the 2016s (attached). Basically, after several discussions had told me to break apart the wiring harness (��) and test the voltage coming thru the red wire from the coach. I told him I would cut the wire and test it. I asked him that if the voltage thu the red wire was not the same as at the coach batteries, could I hook the red wire from the BIRD directly to the coach batteries? He would not answer directly, but thought I was headed in the right direction. I then called Thor and they really have no idea where that red wire terminates. They thought it might be connected to Fuse 5, but I tested that and it was not. I asked the same question about connecting the red wire directly to the coach batteries and they said they thought so.

I gathered my courage and cut the red wire and measured the voltage coming from the coach. It read 12.1v when the coach batteries read 12.6. Plugged into shore power and the coach batteries read 13.6 and the red wire still read 12v. I don't know where the red wire is attached, but it is not to the coach batteries. I then connected the red wire from the BIRD to the left post of the Trombetta (the coach battery side) and, what do you know, the Trombetta opened and the chassis battery is now charging off of shore power. Will wonders never cease!

I sure learned a lot about Trombettas and Potted BIRDs and an even better appreciation for fully checking everything in the coach during your walk thru at the dealers before you purchase. Before my recent purchase I had my volt meter and I checked to make sure that the alternator and shore power and the generator all charged the house batteries and that all electrical systems worked on shore power and on the generator and stand alone. But I never checked to see if shore power/generator charged the chassis battery. Live and learn and another item for Ed's checklist.

Can you shoot some photos of the final solution

[EA37TS]

Did they provide the document in PDF format and include the second page with possible wiring setup? If so can you attach that?

[bevedfelker]

Well after 141 posts the crack Thor Owners' Vigallante Beta Trouble-shooting Corps is on the cusp of a mission success -- well, except for solving vkb's problem that started all this in the first place.

But look at all we learned so far. The BIRD is not Thor's response salute to owners' seemingly impossible problems. A Trombella is not a mini-sized horn with a slide in the brass section. That all batteries in an Axis/Vegas are charged by shore power, generator, and engine driven alternator; albeit, under very specific load and isolation conditions. The Use/Store switch MUST be in USE tobchsrge coach batteries regardless of charging sources. And finally, if Thor screws up your wiring during construction -- you are in for quite an adventure to solve your problem.

Look at all the posts in the entire Thor forum about coach or chassis battery dying, or one or the other not charging. Wonder how many of those are related to what we discussed here.

I hope vkb gets a sution to the mystery unconnected VAC wires not hooked to their converter. It seems like we solved a lot of other folks charging problems; however, we didn't solve theirs. It really Frost's my cinnamen buns that owners had to identify all this without much help from the engineers or technicians at Thor.

OK -- so are we now ready to move on to heaters not working or fail to light or stay lit?

And there will be an additional modification to my manual about charging, BIRD, and isolation relay (Trombetta) trouble shooting.

[vkb]

Originally Posted by bevedfelker

Well after 141 posts the crack Thor Owners' Vigallante Beta Trouble-shooting Corps is on the cusp of a mission success -- well, except for solving vkb's problem that started all this in the first place.

But look at all we learned so far. The BIRD is not Thor's response salute to owners' seemingly impossible problems. A Trombella is not a mini-sized horn with a slide in the brass section. That all batteries in an Axis/Vegas are charged by shore power, generator, and engine driven alternator; albeit, under very specific load and isolation conditions. The Use/Store switch MUST be in USE tobchsrge coach batteries regardless of charging sources. And finally, if Thor screws up your wiring during construction -- you are in for quite an adventure to solve your problem.

Look at all the posts in the entire Thor forum about coach or chassis battery dying, or one or the other not charging. Wonder how many of those are related to what we discussed here.

I hope vkb gets a sution to the mystery unconnected VAC wires not hooked to their converter. It seems like we solved a lot of other folks charging problems; however, we didn't solve theirs. It really Frost's my cinnamen buns that owners had to identify all this without much help from the engineers or technicians at Thor.

OK -- so are we now ready to move on to heaters not working or fail to light or stay lit?

And there will be an additional modification to my manual about charging, BIRD, and isolation relay (Trombetta) trouble shooting.

This morning I spoke to Thor Warranty rep...again...Told him about the unattached cables/wires...telling him we suspect the black wire comes directly from the house/coach batteries under the steps. The red cable/wire...it comes through the bottom right of the fuse panel under the refrigerator..and is attached (photo herewith) to the panel. The other end is hanging in the breeze behind the fuse panel along with the black cable/wire. This fella had no idea what I was explaining...I was reeeeallllly nice ... killed him with kindness and told him I understand he speaks to hundreds of people a day (which he acknowledged) .. I told him I found a local RV Repair company which will come to our residence to solve the problem...however, I would like to have, in hand, a diagram and or schematic for this area of the Coach. He advised he would email everything he could, to me. N0 email as of this writing. and ... I agreed to send him photos of those wires..to his email address which I would get from his email.
During our conversation, I spoke about this being a Quality Control problem.
Tomorrow morning, I will call again.

In addition, I confirmed that using the local RV Service, rather than waiting 6 weeks for Camping World to resolve our problem, would not harm our Warranty..yes it was verbal,...and I am going to read our Warranty shortly.
He did tell me that service calls were not covered by Warranty..I was nice, but did say that it is a shame, that we have put 78 miles on our coach and are spending $$$ to get it right.

Friday, we have the local RV Service coming to our coach...because, it is that time of year...they said if we brought it to them, it would sit on their lot for at least 3 weeks, they are that stacked up. !

ONEILL...I am happy to hear you resolved your problem...please post photos !

these photos..the black & red cable/wires have electrical tape over the end, placed there by Roadside Assist guy, as the black wire is HOT !!

[JamieGeek]

Is there another terminal on your first picture? I see the one with the red wire labelled POS but is there another terminal labelled NEG?

I ask because I think I know what is wrong here: You said the black wire is "HOT"--by HOT is that 12V? Which makes sense: RV manufacturers wire the house wiring just like at home (where black is 120V and white is neutral). Thus to speculate more: If the NEG terminal has a white wire going to it, and you can measure 12V between the black wire and the NEG/white wire then I would disconnect the house battery, unscrew and remove the red wire from the terminal (throw away the red wire) and screw the black wire to the POS terminal then reconnect the battery. Unless, of course, the black wire doesn't reach that far; then that would explain why the red wire is there...Thor QC again.

The next time I'm at my camper I'll have to take a look; if someone on here can take a look at their converter and see if the POS wire going to it is black and the NEG wire is white...

[vkb]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Is there another terminal on your first picture? I see the one with the red wire labelled POS but is there another terminal labelled NEG?

I ask because I think I know what is wrong here: You said the black wire is "HOT"--by HOT is that 12V? Which makes sense: RV manufacturers wire the house wiring just like at home (where black is 120V and white is neutral). Thus to speculate more: If the NEG terminal has a white wire going to it, and you can measure 12V between the black wire and the NEG/white wire then I would disconnect the house battery, unscrew and remove the red wire from the terminal (throw away the red wire) and screw the black wire to the POS terminal then reconnect the battery. Unless, of course, the black wire doesn't reach that far; then that would explain why the red wire is there...Thor QC again.

The next time I'm at my camper I'll have to take a look; if someone on here can take a look at their converter and see if the POS wire going to it is black and the NEG wire is white...

Jamie...I will go and pull the panel off ... and look..I,also,have more photos of the front of the panel...the black wire, appears to come from the direction of the house batteries...will get back to you shortly

Kay

[Oneilkeys]

I will and I will draw a simple diagram, but if is too dark to do tonight and I am playing golf in the morning. So it might be a day or two.

[Oneilkeys]

Originally Posted by dstankov

Did they provide the document in PDF format and include the second page with possible wiring setup? If so can you attach that?

The wiring is the same as the old one, but it is not how Thor has it wired in the Axis. I will come up with a wiring diagram and post it.

[vkb]

Originally Posted by vkb

Jamie...I will go and pull the panel off ... and look..I,also,have more photos of the front of the panel...the black wire, appears to come from the direction of the house batteries...will get back to you shortly

Kay

JAMIE .. attached photos of panel under refrigerator..

top .. incoming white .. negative as you suggested
closeup of white incoming
red coming into bottom of box showing positive
**this is the wire/cable which comes from nowhere
diagram inside panel cover

If your box looks identical to ours...or...better yet..
IF ONEILL can attach a photo of his wiring .. since he has a 2016 .. we might have an answer !

Ron pulled out the panel again...the black wire/cable has plenty of play ..

thank you !

[JamieGeek]

Given all the diagrams floating around this thread, I'd expect the black wire to go straight to the BIRD circuitry (perhaps through the big 300A fuse). If you wanted to be extra sure you could try to follow the wire to where it goes but I'm sure that would be difficult (it probably snakes behind the counter and below the frame or in the walls somewhere).

Another option would be to disconnect the batteries and use the volt-meter's resistance check (if the one you have has such a setting). You could grab some spare wire from home, wire up one end to where you thing the black wire ends at the BIRD circuit to near the end of the black wire by the converter and use the volt-meter to measure the resistance between those two points--if its 0 ohms then you've found the wire. (You have to disconnect the batteries doing this because the volt-meter will provide its own power for the check--it usually is very low volts and current; just enough to check the resistance.) Volt-meters that can measure resistance are commonly called Volt-Ohm-Meters or VOM and will usually say as such on the label.

Or just wait to see if Oneilkeys can snap a few pics of his setup and compare.

[vkb]

Tomorrow we have an RV guy coming out...
Thor Warranty sent me diagrams...will post them if they appear relevent or are not duplicates of what we already have.

Here are photos of our wires to nowhere situation under the refrig.
I had posted the black/red already...the black has an end on it exactly the same as on the red. Ron tried to trace the black wire back to its origination but lost it .
black & red cables
once again..the red comes from the box, positive..

these small wires with a 5amp fuse attached..we do not know where they originate

in addition...I would like to know if our Trombetta is wired correctly !

[vkb]

Originally Posted by Oneilkeys

The wiring is the same as the old one, but it is not how Thor has it wired in the Axis. I will come up with a wiring diagram and post it.

ONeill...happy to hear you resolved your Trombetta issue.
When you have time, will you post a photo of the corrected wiring on the Trombetta, which you spoke of yesterday ? and any other changes you made in regards to that and the BIRD ?

Friday, we have an RV Repair fella coming out to figure out where all those extra wires and cables should be connected.

I think Jamie is spot on, in his idea...however, Rons' volt meter does not have the setting of which Jamie referred.

Thankyou for your help !

K

[Oneilkeys]

Originally Posted by vkb

ONeill...happy to hear you resolved your Trombetta issue.
When you have time, will you post a photo of the corrected wiring on the Trombetta, which you spoke of yesterday ? and any other changes you made in regards to that and the BIRD ?

Friday, we have an RV Repair fella coming out to figure out where all those extra wires and cables should be connected.

I think Jamie is spot on, in his idea...however, Rons' volt meter does not have the setting of which Jamie referred.

Thankyou for your help !

K

Sorry, I have been away from my unit so I have not been able to take any pictures, but I have come up with a simplified diagram and explanation which I will post now.

[Oneilkeys]

Since there still seems to be some misconceptions about how the Trombetta/BIRD is installed and how they operate in the Axis/Vegas, I thought I would post a simplified diagram and explanation.

First, the Trombetta is nothing more than a way to connect the two battery banks (coach and chassis) together into a single bank so they all can be charged simultaneously by the engine alternator, shore power or the generator and disconnect the two banks so they do not discharge at the same time and leave you no way to start the coach. The Trombetta has four "posts". The two large ones (big red wires) run to the two battery banks. In my Axis, the right post (looking from the front) goes to the chassis battery and the left post goes to the coach battery bank. There are two small "posts" (front and back). The rear post is a ground. The front post is where the Trombetta receives "power" from the BIRD to open and close. When the engine and generator are off and the coach is not on shore power, the Trombetta is open, separating the two battery banks.

The BIRD is the piece that opens and closes the Trombetta to connect and disconnect the battery banks. There are four wires coming out of the bird. The black wire goes to ground. The white wire is connected to the front post of the Trombetta. The orange wire is connected to the large right "post" of the Trombetta - the chassis battery side via a 5 amp fuse. The red wire is connected to the coach battery side. In the 2016 Axis, Thor apparently connected it somewhere near the coach batteries. Since mine was not connected correctly, I cut the red wire and connected it to the large left post - the coach battery side via a 5 amp fuse.

How does it work. Simply, the BIRD constantly senses the voltage on the coach and chassis batteries. If either voltage is above 13.1 volts, which indicates the batteries are being charged (by either the engine alternator, generator or shore power), the BIRD sends power through the white wire which closes the isolator relay (Trombetta), connecting the batteries, charging them all simultaneously.

After the engine or the generator is turned off or shore power is disconnected and the coach battery voltage falls below 12.6 volts for approximately 30 seconds, the isolator relay (Trombetta) will open, separating the battery banks to prevent the coach loads from discharging the chassis battery. When the voltage goes back above 13.1 volts for approximately 1 minute, the isolator relay will close again allowing the chassis and coach batteries to again charge.

OTHER COMMENTS: the Trombetta or the BIRD do not provide power to anything, nor are they connected by wires to anything except the chassis battery, the coach batteries and each other. The new Potted BIRD in the 2016s just means that the units are sealed to protect them from water damage. They operate exactly the same as the "non-potted" BIRDs in the older units.
CAUTION: One other thing. If you work on the Trombetta, please make sure that you disconnect both battery banks before you use a wrench on any of the Trombetta posts. There is a lot of amperage in those big posts leading to the battery banks and all the metal above the Trombetta is ground. If the Trombetta is "hot" and you touch the wrench from the Trombetta to any metal that has lost its paint, you will get big sparks and possibly burns. Be very careful.

[Oneilkeys]

Originally Posted by vkb

Tomorrow we have an RV guy coming out...
Thor Warranty sent me diagrams...will post them if they appear relevent or are not duplicates of what we already have.

Here are photos of our wires to nowhere situation under the refrig.
I had posted the black/red already...the black has an end on it exactly the same as on the red. Ron tried to trace the black wire back to its origination but lost it .
Attachment 1581 black & red cables
once again..the red comes from the box, positive..
Attachment 1580
these small wires with a 5amp fuse attached..we do not know where they originate

in addition...I would like to know if our Trombetta is wired correctly !

That's really scarey. You are lucky driving the coach did not connect one of those hot wires to ground and start a fire. I would not be surprised if that red wire with the 5 amp fuse is the red wire from the Trombetta which is supposed to be connected to the coach batteries. It is supposed to have a 5 amp fuse between it and the batteries. Good luck on your repair guy.

[TyCreek]

I took a picture with a little more view of the surrounding wires. This is wired by Thor and seems to be working fine. There's a yellow wire spliced to a red wired fuse stub. I can't see any wires that also have an obvious route to the bird though I don't know what happens in other loom junctions.