Fully emptying Black water tank issue

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I wasn't referring to how much water he FLUSHES with... but rather how much water is ALREADY in the tank before the butt even hits the toilet seat. The ONLY reason a large amount of flush water would be very important is if the "cross piping" issue came into play - which the OP claims he does NOT have.

We are in agreement, because the amount of water I flush with is irrelevant (I don't have cross piping either). If I know I am gonna do #2, I will softly hold pedal to fill bowl, but it is not to get more water for a flush, but to ensure all solids from #2 hit water and not the side of toilet bowl.

But back to OP problem... He also states...

I have filled the tank with water to the point that the level is "full" and when dumping it, I can see toilet paper at the bottom.

This is why I say he may not be using a very good chemical or enough. Toilet paper should break down in hours. It will breakdown in a week if nothing is used but water. I am sure there are better chemicals to breakdown toilet paper than Thetford Campa-Fresh Free & Clear RV Holding Tank Treatment, especially since they went Formaldehyde Free, but is cheap relatively speaking and it has worked for me. I can put 4 rolls of toilet paper in my tank with less than 10 gallons of water and dump next day and not see paper. In fact, I could argue that the lesser the water the stronger it breaks down toilet paper. In fact it may be why my results are never an issue. I have 40 gal tank, and I user 8 oz. But since I never go over 2/3 tanks 26 gal I have stronger chemicals. Truth be told; I am likely actually between 13 & 20 gal of black when I dump so I am in effect using twice the recommended dosage. No way around because I dump when Gray is Full, all my tank indicators work properly with accurate readings.

OP just need a good chemical or enough chemicals to dissolve his toilet paper in hours ( maybe 12 hours) NOT days.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

I never much worry about it. It is a black water tank and it always will be dirty. Who cares? I almost always put a couple of gallons back into each tank after dumping and flushing so it can slosh around as I drive home. Typically I’ll drain that out and put a couple more gallons in before I go to storage. I never let the tank go dry. Been doing this for years and so far so good.

True dat I dare say it is next to impossible to clog my black tank. Basically I drain and forget except for the little water added when pouring in my liquid Thetford Campa-Fresh Free & Clear RV Holding Tank Treatment. Because it is liquid, I have less than 1 gallon but it it just make the real process of breaking down solids stronger.

I see the new Winnebago, I miss that.... Congratulations

[Travelin' Texans]

QUOTE

Your black tank will only perform as well as you prepare it. It takes TIME and a fair amount of water... from the beginning for it (and the sensors) to work properly. Show me a black tank with inoperable sensors, and I'll show you one which at some point wasn't sufficiently flushed and/or not prepped with enough "initial water charge
QUOTE

Been rving for 45+ years, have had 7-8 rvs, have never had one that after the 1st few tank fills the sensors were anymore than pretty red lights signifying nothing, regardless how much water was used before, after or during a flush, have tried every chemical, every magic potion on the market & there's likely 1000s of folks would agree. If yours are anywhere near accurate you have the rare unicorn set of sensors when/if you trade rvs you'd better take those with you to the next rv.

[Jusplainwacky]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

I never much worry about it. It is a black water tank and it always will be dirty. Who cares? I almost always put a couple of gallons back into each tank after dumping and flushing so it can slosh around as I drive home. Typically I’ll drain that out and put a couple more gallons in before I go to storage. I never let the tank go dry. Been doing this for years and so far so good.

I care.

There is a big difference between a tank being dirty and a tank that isn't completely emptying to the point you can see toilet paper after multiple flushing.

When I park my RV on the side of the house for months, I want a clean black tank, otherwise the water will evaporate, and your RV will reek of sewage.

I not really interested in people saying they don't have a problem emptying their black water tank or not caring if it's clean or not. What I am interested in is hearing from people that have this same issue and what they have done as a work around. I'm tempted to drill some holes in the tank, put some "whip hoses" in it like a pool sweep, seal it up, and connect the hose up to them.

[Vibeman]

I have a 29m and am familiar with the problem you are having. On mine the stool drains straight down into the black tank. The bottom of the tank is sloped toward the drain (deep) end but since the stool dumps at the opposite (shallow) end of the tank all solids just plop down onto the bottom surface of the tank until the tank is at least half full, at which point you will see liquid when looking down the stool. My solution is for the first several flushes containing solids after a tank dump, fill the toilet bowl FULL of water and open it as quickly as possible, this usually gives enough force to carry solids down to the deep end. If you look straight down the stool with the ball valve open and see a pile of paper/solids just sitting there you may have to get a stick to loosen and move them as they will be stuck to the bottom. Once the tank level gets up around half full you can reduce the amount of water used when flushing because the bottom of the tank now has liquid over it. I know this is not the best way to conserve fresh water or waste tank capacity but it works for me. I also periodically use a right angle flush wand to clean the inside of the tank. After doing this the tank level sensors start working again for a little while.

[Vibeman]

I know you asked for a better solution than using more water but I have not found one. If you come up with something that works better I will use it too!

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Jusplainwacky

Seems like to me that the hose you connect up to the tank should do a much better job flushing the tank.

First.... the amount of water is everything.


The San-T-Flush system is all but worthless using it as designed. Most camps don't have enough water pressure and there aren't enough nozzles inside the tank. It is not going to spray enough water with enough pressure to pressure wash / clean the inside of the black tank and rinse remaining debris out. The San-T-Flush is best used to fill the black tank to ~80% of capacity with fresh water after the initial dump. With ~30 gallons of fresh water in the tank it will push any remaining debris out of the tank..... especially if using the Calgon / Dawn solution I mention below.


There are so many of these threads and they always crack me up...... humanity has lost most of its common sense.

People who stow and toss their toilet paper are the ones that I really think have lost their marbles..... unless they are dry camping for a very long period of time.

People think an RV toilet and black tank should work like a home toilet and septic / sewer. A home toilet flushes 1/2 - 1 gallon of water after every use to push waste to the septic tank or sewer... whether you go #1 or #2.

We use Scott's septic safe toilet paper and we use it like we use it home. I can see chunks of the paper drain out of the tank when dumping. After I flush the blank tank once with a 80% load of fresh water using the San-T-Flush port, it is almost always clear water draining out at the end.

This is not dry camping friendly but if you mostly have full hookups, you will never have an issue following these guidelines:

I. Going #1

- Flush with at least 1/2 - 1 bowl full of water

II. Going #2

- Start with some water in the bowl
- Flush with a full bowl of water after going
- Flush with another full bowl of water after wiping
- This means you are flushing with ~1.5 - 2 gallons of water for #2

*If you always follow this approach for #1 and #2 it will push all the debris towards the bottom of the tank. Just like your toilet does at home.

III. Don't empty your black tank until it is at least 1/2 full. If there is not enough water in the tank, there will not be enough force to push everything out the drain once opened. Add water to the black tank if you want to empty while it is less than 50% full.

IV. After dumping your black tank, fill the tank again 80% full with fresh water and drain again making sure the effluent is relatively clear.

V. Add ~5 gallons of water then a mixture of Calgon, Dawn and RV Tank Tabs / Treatment down the toilet. This will agitate as you drive and help keep the sensors clean and break up any remaining debris. The Calgon also keeps the inner walls and sensors slick so nothing sticks to them.


In 5+ years and two different coaches I've never had any backups, clogging, tank drain issues or odor issues. I've also gone 4 nights / 5 days dry camping with the above approach.

[Jimbo56]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

I never much worry about it. It is a black water tank and it always will be dirty. Who cares? I almost always put a couple of gallons back into each tank after dumping and flushing so it can slosh around as I drive home. Typically I’ll drain that out and put a couple more gallons in before I go to storage. I never let the tank go dry. Been doing this for years and so far so good.

This is what I do. An old timer, 35 years ago, told me to never have a “ dry” tank. Never leave your valves open if connected to sewer. Now, use paper that says septic safe. Get a bucket. Fill it with water. Fold some paper. Drop it in. It should begin dissolving in a few minutes. If not, get different paper. But I always have a few gallons in both tanks even if it’s just sitting in the driveway. Also, never let the bowl sit empty. Bad for seals.

[lwmcguir]

Originally Posted by Jimbo56

This is what I do. An old timer, 35 years ago, told me to never have a “ dry” tank. Never leave your valves open if connected to sewer. Now, use paper that says septic safe. Get a bucket. Fill it with water. Fold some paper. Drop it in. It should begin dissolving in a few minutes. If not, get different paper. But I always have a few gallons in both tanks even if it’s just sitting in the driveway. Also, never let the bowl sit empty. Bad for seals.

Worked for me since the 60's

Add some antifreeze if you're a cold weather camper

[The Gritz Carlton]

Amazing how a thread on crap can draw so much attention! Watch your toilet at home...read the volume of water is uses per flush...it's posted on your toilet by law...do the same (or very close) ratios of water in your RV and all should be fine. Chewing your food a little better and using less paper will help also. Conserving water and tank space in your RV is a good habit but it will lead to all these other problems if you don't do it correctly. For the most part...we're hooked up to sewer at campgrounds most of the time and dumping the tank is easier than cranking a lawn mower. Fill the bowl with water...poop...flush...fill the bowl with water again...flush...all good. There's not a short cut.

[EA37TS]

Get a hose end water meter, Calgon and dawn.

Here’s how I handle the issue based on my 40 gallon tank.

Using the tank flush add 5 gallons of water to the tank then pull the valve. Drain the tank and close the dump valve.

Add 25 gallons of water to the tank and pull the valve. Drain sand close the valve.

While adding 30 gallons of water to the tank pour one capful of Calgon and 1/4 cup of dawn down the toilet. Once the meter reads 30 - 35 gallons pull the valve and drain the tank then close the valve.

Add 37 gallons of water to the tank then drain and close the valve.

Add 5 gallons of water to the tank and dump the chemical of choice down the toilet. Done.

Using this method I’ve never had sewage smell in the coach even after being stored during the SC heat for months.

[Chateau_Nomad]

I use Judge's method... but use Tide instead of Dawn. The exception is I double his step IV... I'm adamant about that tank being as rinsed as I can get it.

Calgon is an excellent wetting agent and Tide, Dawn or basically any dish or laundry detergent concentrate, does the rest. I just prefer fresh smelling laundry detergent.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

I use Judge's method... but use Tide instead of Dawn. The exception is I double his step IV... I'm adamant about that tank being as rinsed as I can get it.

Calgon is an excellent wetting agent and Tide, Dawn or basically any dish or laundry detergent concentrate, does the rest. I just prefer fresh smelling laundry detergent.

So what is this... you in Partial Contempt with the Judge....

I am gonna continue to piss and crap like normal; drain what comes out using Thetford to breakdown solids and toilet paper. If I ever have problem I will start a my own Fresh smelling thread

[Jusplainwacky]

Originally Posted by Vibeman

I have a 29m and am familiar with the problem you are having. On mine the stool drains straight down into the black tank. The bottom of the tank is sloped toward the drain (deep) end but since the stool dumps at the opposite (shallow) end of the tank all solids just plop down onto the bottom surface of the tank until the tank is at least half full, at which point you will see liquid when looking down the stool. My solution is for the first several flushes containing solids after a tank dump, fill the toilet bowl FULL of water and open it as quickly as possible, this usually gives enough force to carry solids down to the deep end. If you look straight down the stool with the ball valve open and see a pile of paper/solids just sitting there you may have to get a stick to loosen and move them as they will be stuck to the bottom. Once the tank level gets up around half full you can reduce the amount of water used when flushing because the bottom of the tank now has liquid over it. I know this is not the best way to conserve fresh water or waste tank capacity but it works for me. I also periodically use a right angle flush wand to clean the inside of the tank. After doing this the tank level sensors start working again for a little while.

It is "reflushing" to know that someone else with a 29M has the same problem. I also have filled the bowl FULL of water MULTIPLE TIMES and opened the valve quickly thinking that will flush things away...but nope...just sits there.

The only solution I have found is what Vibeman said about using a stick...I use the wand, but what a hassle. I was hoping that there would be a better solution.

Everyone pretty much keeps going back to "use more water" or some method that works for them and they have no issues...but those people also don't have a 29M. I personally think it's a design flaw...maybe the tank isn't slanted enough?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Jusplainwacky

It is "reflushing" to know that someone else with a 29M has the same problem. I also have filled the bowl FULL of water MULTIPLE TIMES and opened the valve quickly thinking that will flush things away...but nope...just sits there.

The only solution I have found is what Vibeman said about using a stick...I use the wand, but what a hassle. I was hoping that there would be a better solution.

Everyone pretty much keeps going back to "use more water" or some method that works for them and they have no issues...but those people also don't have a 29M. I personally think it's a design flaw...maybe the tank isn't slanted enough?

Post 16

... and adding more water suggests a faulty design.

While the slant is not the same as the pipe across the underbelly, it effectively yields the same negative result.

I am still not sure I agree that it is 100% of the issue unless you say you never see any toilet paper when draining?

If you see toilet paper while draining you have inadequately dissolved it. That is fixable. If you see toilet paper lodge on tank bottom that is on upper end of the tank that is design flaw. Unless you redesign your tank the workaround with more water works assuming you have appropriate chemicals because toilet paper is in water 24/7.

Now here is a thought... as it is confirmed that other 29M owners have the same issue; what problems (other than aesthetics) have you or any reported with seeing the paper via the toilet? Is the non water solution simply don't look?

But given all I have learned, and if I was you and had bought a 29M, I would simply double the dosage of my Thetford Camp Fresh so when I do drive around it helps to breakdown the paper and mound faster. I would use the water like normal when flushing. I would also calculate how many gallons of water/waste it takes for the slanted portion to be at least 1 inch under water. Then I would NEVER flush unless I am over that threshold.

I actually have hose for my macerator pump where if my Gray gets full and Black is still at 1/3; I will pump some gray into the black tank where they both may be at 2/3rds.

[Jusplainwacky]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Post 16

... and adding more water suggests a faulty design.

While the slant is not the same as the pipe across the underbelly, it effectively yields the same negative result.

If you see toilet paper lodge on tank bottom that is on upper end of the tank that is design flaw.

But given all I have learned, and if I was you and had bought a 29M, I would simply double the dosage of my Thetford Camp Fresh so when I do drive around it helps to breakdown the paper.

I have seen "slush" (mixture of paper and stuff) when I use the clear fitting on the dump tank...but again, the issue is seeing paper sitting on the bottom of the tank.

Driving around isn't a solution and shouldn't have to be.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Jusplainwacky

I have seen "slush" (mixture of paper and stuff) when I use the clear fitting on the dump tank...but again, the issue is seeing paper sitting on the bottom of the tank.

Driving around isn't a solution and shouldn't have to be.

Nothing like a warm cup of waste slush... So we advance the output is not of concern. Just the visual of paper sitting on what I will call the slanted slope of the bottom of tank.

My suggestion was NOT to drive around as a solution, but merely stating that when you do drive around, the strong chemical solution will break down what remain on the slope.

My belief, (and I acknowledge I can't know without a 29M) is that even though the paper may build, the tank is all the while filling with water and other liquidous. At some point, maybe 12 - 15 gallons and it is covered and will to start to breakdown immediately. But lets say you only have 9 gallons and you go a while time, at some point you will drive and and it will slosh the chemicals on the slope.

For kicks, next time I am in my RV I will just dump an entire roll of regular household toilet paper only flushing enough to get the paper in the toilet hole. Then I will get flashlight and look for paper.

I would expect to see it all there, but why would that be a surprise given the tank was previously empty? My guess is that with 4 or 5 gallons I have enough to breakdown down anything in my tank. But I don't need to rush to put 4 or 5 gals in, it will happen anyway naturally. Maybe this is why my black tank never fills or go past 2/3rds tank.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Jusplainwacky

It is "reflushing" to know that someone else with a 29M has the same problem. I also have filled the bowl FULL of water MULTIPLE TIMES and opened the valve quickly thinking that will flush things away...but nope...just sits there.

The only solution I have found is what Vibeman said about using a stick...I use the wand, but what a hassle. I was hoping that there would be a better solution.

Everyone pretty much keeps going back to "use more water" or some method that works for them an.d they have no issues...but those people also don't have a 29M. I personally think it's a design flaw...maybe the tank isn't slanted enough?

Your 29M coach isn't going to be radically different than others when it comes to the tanks. A few have toilets directly over the tank but many do not and there are some variances but they are all very similar.

My black (and grey) tank runs about the width of the coach. The toilet is on the passenger side of the coach. The deepest part of the blank tank and the drain is on the driver side of the coach. The toilet sits above the shallow ledge of the tank.

You will see this from looking at the schematics (the black tank is on the left and the grey is on the right). The waste from the toilet is going to sit on the ledge and it will require a lot of water to push the debris to the bottom of the tank.... just like a home toilet pushing debris through a pipe to eventually get it to the septic tank.

You will also notice the drain from the bathroom sink drain is positioned such that it isn't going to help to wash debris directly under the toilet to the deepest part of the tank... that is also why lots of water when using the toilet is important.

You can also see the that debris can and will sit on the ledge and that it why the San-T-Flush won't fully clean the black tank by just running water with the drain valve open.

As a few of us suggested, you need to fill the black tank 70 - 80% full and then drain it again to clear the debris off the ledge and fully drained from the tank.

Now if you are not the first owner..... it is possible the previous owner was not doing things properly and now you have a hardened dam created that is restricting your flow to the deepest part of your tank and it will require some work to get cleaned out enough so things move through the system properly. This may be why you are having to break things up with a stick.

You may think there is a design flaw... and you can argue there are a lot of design flaws on these coaches..... but this is the way they are built and why there has to be a little care taken to ensure things flow smoothly.

If you haven't looked at your schematics, I strongly suggest you do as it may show you how the tanks look and should work in your specific coach.

I know you posted a similar thread about leveling. It is also possible your leveling method is causing your waste to run more up hill and not drain to the deepest part of the tank depending on how your tank and toilet are configured. Your schematics will tell the story.

[Jusplainwacky]

Originally Posted by Judge

Your 29M coach isn't going to be radically different than others when it comes to the tanks. A few have toilets directly over the tank but many do not. As I thought the toilet is over the tank which was confirmed by Vibeman

You will see this from looking at the schematics (the black tank is on the left and the grey is on the right). The waste from the toilet is going to sit on the ledge and it will require a lot of water to push the debris to the bottom of the tank. My black tank is on the right when looking at the valves


You can also see the that debris can and will sit on the ledge and that it why the San-T-Flush won't fully clean the black tank by running water with the valve open.

As a few of us suggested, you need to fill the black tank 70 - 80% full and then drain it again to clear the debris off the ledge and fully from the tank. Like I have said multiple times here...I have FILLED the tank to the point the "F" is shown on the display...then I drain, refill, fill the toilet up, empty that MULITPLE times...still see paper sitting directly at the bottom.

Now if you are not the first owner. I am the original owner

It is also possible your leveling method is causing your waste to run more up hill and not drain to the deep part of the tank depending on how your tank is configured. I checked the level with a bubble level when I put the jacks down...it was level

Considering that Vibeman has a 29M and the same problem, it must be just the nature of the beast.

See my reply in BOLD

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Jusplainwacky

Like I have said multiple times here...I have FILLED the tank to the point the "F" is shown on the display...

And there may be your whole problem...

1. You cannot trust the sensors. I am meticulous cleaning my tanks and my black tank was just dumped and cleaned. My coach has been sitting in the garage and now reads FULL after a trip to fill up the propane tank.

2. The sensors (black, grey and fresh) will often register full when the tanks are nowhere near full. My black tank registers full at about 25 gallons out of a 40 gallon tank. My 60 gallon fresh water tank will read full after 42 - 45 gallons.

The only way to do it properly each and every time is to have a digital flow meter on the hose filling the black tank. I have a 40 gallon back tank and I add 33 - 35 gallons of fresh water after dumping.

If you are relying on the sensor to tell you the tank is full when flushing, I can guarantee more than 50% of the time your black tank is nowhere near being full of fresh water.