Just wondering

[Bob Denman]

If fuel economy worries you: you'll end up driving something like this!
(Do you remember this ad? )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XUKOUbp_PA

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by taylorbob1

If you like the Vegas/Axis 24.1 floorplan but your wife feels like it’s too big & wants better MPG...
You might consider the Synergy Sprinter or Citation Sprinter with the 24ST floorplan.

You’ll get the popular Mercedes diesel front end (small class C), but much better MPG. I’ve heard it’s 14-16 depending on how it’s loaded, how fast you drive and whether you’re towing.

It’s about the same length at 25’10” (vs Vegas/Axis 25’6”), but narrower and not as tall. Also has a shorter wheelbase.
So the perception for most is that it’s much easier to drive.

New or used it’ll cost more than Vegas/Axis (probably because of the Mercedes front end).

By the way...the 24.1 & the ST floorplan are my favorites because you can sleep in the coach without using the slide.
Great for inconspicuous overnight boon-docking while on the road to a final destination, or mid-day naps in the beach parking lot.

The Mercedes diesels have been a bit of a concern for me for a number of reasons, perhaps none of them logical ...

1) I have seen a lot of posts on some of the forums stating that MB says that any biodiesel about 5% is harmful and should be avoided and I would not want to be searching around for B5 if I did not have to.

2) Oil changes for the MB diesels are much more expensive than those for the Ford diesels and most of the RV shops where I live won't do them. The dealer who did a lot of work on my Class B said that MB is so picky about how the oil change must be done that they, the shop, will not bother, and the local MB dealer who will work on them wants a lot of money.

3) And I worry about the difficultly in finding a MB dealer to do any chassis engine work while traveling in remote areas. We are often in the middle of nowhere on our trips and I worry that there would not be a MB dealer anywhere around there.

On the other hand the Axis uses the Ford gas engine so it should be relatively easy to get work done on. At least I assume so. My local Ford dealer who did all of the normal maintenance on our Class B (2008 Pleasure-Way on an E-350) does not have a lift capable of raising even that small an RV, so could not possibly lift an Axis which weighs much more.

In any case my concerns are probably all overblown.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Keep in mind that if you get a brand new 2021 version you'll get the new V8 instead of the V10. I doubt the mileage will be much different but it may be (I would hope its better, but probably not by much).

Our experience matches everyone's above: 9-10 mpg give or take (regardless of if we're towing a car or not).

One thing I haven’t seen yet is which of the two 7.3L V8 options will come in the Axis/Vegas, the Premium or Economy. MHSRV has the 2021 Vegas advertised with 350 HP which implies the Premium, but I’d like to see it first from Thor since ads are frequently wrong.

Thor is presently showing the smaller 24.1 on E-350, and if it continuous into 2021 Model Year with new V8, it’s available with taller 4.10 final gears versus 4.56 on V10. That will more than compensate for the V8’s larger size (displacement of 7.3 vs 6.8), but there is option for 4.56, so we’ll have to see what actually is ordered. The higher compression ratio of 10.5 versus 9.0 should help.

I don’t expect much difference either, but potential for a little higher MPG exists, particularly for smaller 24.1 on E-350.

[Bob Denman]

Check with your RV Dealer about the oil changes.
Mine said that they perform the oil changes regularly, and have no problem doing so.
... and it's every 20,000 miles: the increased interval soaks up a lot of the increased cost.

[frankgtx]

Originally Posted by ducksface

I think the last time I worked diesel vs gas break evens I came up with 139,000 miles before the premium for diesel is paid for, then you're left with another 139.000 miles to make up pennies per mile to get ahead of the gas initial and ongoing costs. I think the oil change differential might move it all to. 200,000 mile break over.

The allure of diesel used to be less moving parts and fuel injection when carbs were the norm, no distributor, no spark plugs, cheaper fuel.

No gas distributors, no carbs, 200,000 mile spark plugs, gas is often to always less money than diesel... No allure other than torque.

The allure of diesel disappeared when all the DEF emissions add-ons appeared.

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

If fuel economy worries you: you'll end up driving something like this!
(Do you remember this ad? )

Not quite that worried about fuel economy.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by frankgtx

The allure of diesel disappeared when all the DEF emissions add-ons appeared.

I agree. While many gas engines have become more reliable and durable, diesel emission add-ons have taken a toll. Many motorhomes that only drive around 5,000 miles a year on average can’t pay for added cost on fuel savings, nor durability since gas engines frequently outlast a motorhome.

For those that have the funding and like the higher torque, particularly for large and heavy motorhomes, diesel still has its place. For smaller rigs I think a large heavy duty gas engine is more than adequate and cost effective.



P.S. — When people inevitably bring up the Mercedes Sprinter diesel to compare with gas E-Series, I question why Ford doesn’t add the 3.0L diesel V6 from the F-150 to compete more directly with Mercedes. My guess is that most buyers prefer a more powerful V10 (or new V8), and that if Mercedes had a 300-plus HP heavy-duty gas truck engine they could install in Sprinter, they would at least offer it as an option.

[Bob Denman]

Actually; the low-end torque of a diesel is pretty useful...

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Actually; the low-end torque of a diesel is pretty useful...

Sorry, you’ll have to find someone else willing to buy that BS.

Marketing crap repeated out of context a million times on the internet is still crap.

[Bob Denman]

Not B.S. I've driven RVs with the V-10, AND with the diesel.
The diesel pulls just as hard off the bottom end (for being less than half the displacement!); but loses a bit on the top end...

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Chance

P.S. — When people inevitably bring up the Mercedes Sprinter diesel to compare with gas E-Series, I question why Ford doesn’t add the 3.0L diesel V6 from the F-150 to compete more directly with Mercedes.

I would think that the Ford 3.0L diesel is a better comparison to the MB Sprinter diesel, and that is available in some smaller Class C RVs. In fact it puzzles me why most manufacturers have moved to the MB diesel on the Sprinter chassis rather than the Ford diesel on the 350 HD Transit chassis. The MB diesel is much more expensive, much more expensive to maintain and no more efficient than the Ford so I don't really understand why MB is so much more in demand for small Class C RVs. Unless, of course, the MB diesel offers a much larger profit margin for those using it.

[Bob Denman]

Could it come down to availability?

[Travelin' Texans]

I have no experience with a DP motorhome vs gas, but have lots of miles towing with the V10 in a F350 pickup hauling a 26' gooseneck with a tractor/brush hog combo weighing about 14k, that thing empty would pass everything on the highway but a gas station, 8-10 mpg empty, 6-7 hauling that trailer & with 26 gallon tank I was stopping at every one of those gas stations I came to.
Hauling a 16.5k 5th wheel with a Duramax/Allison averaging about 12 towing at 68 mph (1700 rpm was the sweet spot which was 68 mph), empty was 17-18mpg, loads of power/torque.
Have had diesels with & without needing DEF & didn't notice any difference in maintenance, power, but the newer one got better fuel mileage. DEF usage was a $12+/- 2.5 gallon jug at approximately 3500 miles which is .003 cents per mile, cheap price to prevent the diesel exhaust smell & black smoke. The big argument mentioned by non diesel owners is maintenance, honestly with the extended mileage for servicing didn't notice it being any more than the gassers. Plus with the turbos & other power equipment on all engines today a trip to a garage will be VERY costly regardless of gas or diesel. Unless you have diagnostic auto computer the day of the shade tree mechanic are all but gone.
IMHO if driving a heavy vehicle or towing heavy loads the absolute best option is a diesel with plenty of hp & torque, once you have you'll never want to listen to that gasser screaming at high RPMs trying to keep up or watch the fuel gauge drop as fast as the speedometer.

[Muggs]

Originally Posted by The_Breeze

If that's true, there's something going on here you're not sharing.

Not really. Most miles are at highway speed usually behing either a rig or another RV. Been times without trailer that I thought would see a little better, did not. My racing buddies see the same thing unless they are towing heavier enclosed. I am guessing if it had 4.11 or 4.30 gear weight will make a difference.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by AJMike

I would think that the Ford 3.0L diesel is a better comparison to the MB Sprinter diesel, and that is available in some smaller Class C RVs. In fact it puzzles me why most manufacturers have moved to the MB diesel on the Sprinter chassis rather than the Ford diesel on the 350 HD Transit chassis. The MB diesel is much more expensive, much more expensive to maintain and no more efficient than the Ford so I don't really understand why MB is so much more in demand for small Class C RVs. Unless, of course, the MB diesel offers a much larger profit margin for those using it.

The Sprinter has had a major advantage over the Transit — greater weight rating, or GVWR. Sprinters for years had 11,030 pounds GVWR while Transit was limited to 10,360 pounds. That’s a big issue when trying to build motorhomes around 24~25 feet in length and with 1 or 2 slides.

This year Ford increased Transit to 11,000 pounds that matches previous Sprinter, but Sprinter now has even higher GVWR in range of 5,500 kg.

The Transit has also had a handicap in that the driver’s seat could not swivel, limiting floorplan flexibility compared to Sprinter. I personally don’t like the Transit as much as I want to like it. My wife feels the same about the cab area.

The important thing to remember is that the Ford E-Series is the most popular motorhome chassis, accounting for more than all others combined based on one report showing over 50% market share. And it’s easy to forget that the E-Series has significantly more torque then a diesel Sprinter, and way way more power (and soon becoming even more). It’s nice to talk about a lot of unimportant advantages, but at end of day RV manufacturers feel the E-Series has more value to more buyers. That doesn’t mean it’s higher quality, drives better, or gets higher MPG, but for the cost/value (bang for the buck) more people choose it over Sprinter.

[3rdsfga]

my wife and I just purchased a Thor Delano 24fb and concerned with the GVWR of 11030. I contacted Thor and the dry weight is 10114 we actually loaded the coach up with our standard load and with only me it came in at 10880 with no food or kids. has anyone else run into this issue? looking for other with the Mercedes chassis

[Bob Denman]

It's pretty easy to reach the GVWR of these things...
Pack light, and then take out the stuff that you really don't need..,

[AJMike]

Originally Posted by Chance

The important thing to remember is that the Ford E-Series is the most popular motorhome chassis, accounting for more than all others combined based on one report showing over 50% market share. And it’s easy to forget that the E-Series has significantly more torque then a diesel Sprinter, and way way more power (and soon becoming even more). It’s nice to talk about a lot of unimportant advantages, but at end of day RV manufacturers feel the E-Series has more value to more buyers. That doesn’t mean it’s higher quality, drives better, or gets higher MPG, but for the cost/value (bang for the buck) more people choose it over Sprinter.

That does make sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Winnebago's Class C diesel offerings are all on the Sprinter Chassis now except for the Fuse and you can see the price difference between what I would have thought were equivalent models based on standard features. The Sprinter models have list prices about $35,000-$40,000 higher. I don't know about the street prices but if I were to buy a Winnebago diesel Class C now I am not sure I would want to spend the much more for the MB chassis. But then again that is just me.

I have heard that the Winnebago quality level is higher than Thor's but I have no idea if that is true or not. The chassis' are the same so any difference would have to be in the house part of the RV and in the features that are included in the price.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by AJMike

That does make sense. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Winnebago's Class C diesel offerings are all on the Sprinter Chassis now except for the Fuse and you can see the price difference between what I would have thought were equivalent models based on standard features. The Sprinter models have list prices about $35,000-$40,000 higher. I don't know about the street prices but if I were to buy a Winnebago diesel Class C now I am not sure I would want to spend the much more for the MB chassis. But then again that is just me.

I have heard that the Winnebago quality level is higher than Thor's but I have no idea if that is true or not. The chassis' are the same so any difference would have to be in the house part of the RV and in the features that are included in the price.

I’m not sure about quality differences between Thor and Winnebago, but in smaller and lighter motorhomes like the ones I normally like, Winnebago seems to have been more creative and innovative over the years. Not all were marketplace successes, but I give them credit for trying.

Regarding Winnebago Fuse built on Transit diesel, the new 2020 Transit will have a new 2.0L 4-cylinder twin turbo engine in place of the previous 3.2L inline 5 cylinder. However, the 2020 order guide shows it as a “late availability”, and due to virus manufacturing delays, I have no idea when they will show at dealers. The present Ford Transit site only shows two engines, both 3.5L gas — one naturally aspirated and the other twin turbo EcoBoost.

New for Transit in 2020 are standard 10-speed transmission, 11,000-pound GVWR option, All Wheel Drive option, larger 31-gallon fuel tank option, and driver swivel seat option. And other options also like dual 250-Amp alternators.

Anyway, I’m just mentioning these “options” to suggest that RV manufacturers won’t necessarily order all chassis the same. Additionally, RV manufacturers can (and do) use different length wheelbase, and load the chassis differently as well which can affect how they drive.

I think it pays for buyers to do extensive homework before buying in order to avoid some issues like overloaded chassis or insufficient cargo carrying capacity.

For what it’s worth, Coachmen representative told me at Tampa Super Show in January that they had ordered some Transit Cutaways with EcoBoost, AWD, and dual alternators. I’m curious what market segment these motorhome will go after.

Good luck with your search.

[twovillagers]

Originally Posted by AJMike

We looked at the 24 foot model of the Thor Vegas when we were last at our local RV dealer some time ago and I really liked the feeling of space that the interior gave me. My wife was concerned about the length and height of the RV (we were using a 20 foot Class B at the time) since she wanted to stick with something small and I found myself a bit concerned about the fuel economy.

The last time I owned a Class A (a 2008 Winnebago Sightseer) we averaged about 8 mpg and most of my friends who also had Class As were averaging even less, generally 4-6 mpg. I found using it with $4.50/gal gasoline a bit too expensive and so we did not buy the Vegas at that time. What I did not do (or don't remember doing) was ask other owners what the fuel economy of the small Vegas/Axis was. I did not ask the sales guy because I did not know if I could trust his figures.

The Axis/Vegas is probably lighter than the Sightseer we had, it is not as tall and I suspect that transmissions have been redesigned in the last 12 years to give better fuel economy. Can anyone tell me what kind of fuel economy they get with the 24 or 27 foot Axis/Vegas models? I would like to know so I will be prepared if and when we go back to our local dealer.

Thanks in advance.

We just completed a 1400 mile trip from Central Florida to the Northeast and Northwest corners of Georgia and home in our Vegas 24.1. Driving included Interstates as well as two lane highways with driving in Georgia mountains. Speeds varied from 55/60 on 2 lane roads to 65 on Interstates. We used the generator for about 5 hours.

Average MPG was 9.9. This is about what I will expect in the future.