Winnebago Acquiring Lithionics

[Chance]

This acquisition may say a lot about how Winnebago must view lithium batteries as part of future RVs (both motorized and towables), and perhaps how they expect future EV motorhomes to evolve. Not what I expected. What do you think if deal goes through?

Do not know if Thor has already done the same with another battery company, but this acquisition seems a major step towards phasing out lead batteries.


https://rvbusiness.com/winnebago-ind...y-acquisition/

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by Chance

This acquisition may say a lot about how Winnebago must view lithium batteries as part of future RVs (both motorized and towables), and perhaps how they expect future EV motorhomes to evolve. Not what I expected. What do you think if deal goes through?

Do not know if Thor has already done the same with another battery company, but this acquisition seems a major step towards phasing out lead batteries.


https://rvbusiness.com/winnebago-ind...y-acquisition/

Nice great news. Still operates independent

After the transaction closes, which is expected within Winnebago Industries’ third fiscal quarter, subject to customary closing conditions, Tartaglia and the current Lithionics management team will continue to lead the business from its headquarters in Clearwater, Fla. Lithionics will operate as a wholly owned subsidiary of Winnebago Industries.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chance

This acquisition may say a lot about how Winnebago must view lithium batteries as part of future RVs (both motorized and towables), and perhaps how they expect future EV motorhomes to evolve. Not what I expected. What do you think if deal goes through?

Do not know if Thor has already done the same with another battery company, but this acquisition seems a major step towards phasing out lead batteries.


https://rvbusiness.com/winnebago-ind...y-acquisition/

While it is true WBGO wants to be a leader if not already a pioneer in EV Motorhomes, I think there is another dominant reason for the acquisition. WBGO likes to crow that they Mfg 70- 80% of all of the parts that go into their RVs. It is true and pretty incredible. They state it is how they can control quality. I was surprised to learn that cabinetry, furniture etc is all made by WBGO.

I have always maintained that if I ever go Lithium it will be because I bought a new WBGO EV where it is a tried, true and proven system. Right now I am enjoying lead acid AGMs and generators like they going out of style.... wait they are; but you get my point. But who knows maybe one day they offer a kit whereby you replace an aging Onan with a new 50 or 30 Amp Lithium Power Center. If I can run my ACs 3 or 3 days without a charge, I will be all in.

FWIW I sold my Honda lawnmower last year and I have all Lithium lawn tools now. Lighter, quieter, no gas to store and maintain and no maintenance.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

Nice great news. Still operates independent

After the transaction closes, which is expected within Winnebago Industries’ third fiscal quarter, subject to customary closing conditions, Tartaglia and the current Lithionics management team will continue to lead the business from its headquarters in Clearwater, Fla. Lithionics will operate as a wholly owned subsidiary of Winnebago Industries.

I circled this from the article. "bring strategic sourcing benefits and secure a critical area of its supply chain"

[Lt Keefer]

dkoldman, questions about your lithium lawn equipment. How big is your yard and is it smooth and level? I have been thinking about switching from my John Deere to a electric solution but have doubts about the ability of electrics to mow 2 acres on one charge. That and the durability of the plastic blade adapters to handle the rocks that we grow here in Central Texas. How have your pieces held up? To the moderators, feel free to move my question to an appropriate sub heading.

[RACarvalho]

Originally Posted by Chance

This acquisition may say a lot about how Winnebago must view lithium batteries ....

Geopolitics,supply chain issues and raw material scarcity may have had a lot to do with the decision.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Lt Keefer

dkoldman, questions about your lithium lawn equipment. How big is your yard and is it smooth and level? I have been thinking about switching from my John Deere to a electric solution but have doubts about the ability of electrics to mow 2 acres on one charge. That and the durability of the plastic blade adapters to handle the rocks that we grow here in Central Texas. How have your pieces held up? To the moderators, feel free to move my question to an appropriate sub heading.

I think giving the topic the durability of Lithium electronics could be fair game. It the future WBGO is banking on and the analogy with lawn is clear assessment of same today.

My lawn is 7,500 sq feet, it has 3 tiers and it is on a hill with fairly good climb. I have always have used self propelled to pull.

I have had 3 Honda Lawnmowers and swear by them but like a Lead Acid battery in RV they are HEAVY. My Honda also had a lithium battery that must be maintain for electric start.

I bought a Ryobi 40 V Lithium equipment one day only because I read the Dallas City Council was considering a ban on motorized power lawn equipment. I don't live in Dallas but close enough and one day I saw a Ryobi Blower and Edger on incredible sale at the Orange Store. I gave it a shot. Used about a year never went back to motorized equipment. Sold what I could keeping the Ryobi.

Then I decided to try a electric mower, a bigger gamble. My Ryobi 40v mower will hold two batteries (only use one at a time). I never need more than one battery. I can mow, edge, trim and blow on one 40v 6 amp battery. I kept my Honda for a year and sold it later.

The Ryobi mower has had issues though. I had to return to HD twice and each time they gave me a new unit. It would stop self propelling. Two months ago it stop self propelling again and I had to take to Ryobi Dealer who said they could not get parts and Ryobi authorized a replacement. Two weeks later I had heard nothing so Dealer gave me a ticket number to call Ryobi directly. I asked Ryobi if I had to pay someone to mow my lawn because they were saying it could take 4 - 6 weeks They said the would escalate ( yeah right ) The next day, the local dealer said my new lawnmower was in.... wtf I go get it and it is brand new that works like a champ again. They must have overnighted it or had it processed from a local distribution center?

I have metal blade and it cuts really well. If you try to go too fast it will automatically apply more power to the blade and drain battery faster, you can hear it.

Despite the issues, I am never going back because it is incredibly light. I can easily pick up to move to different level whereas I would even thing about it with the Honda.

If you looking at a John Deere it is likely equipped to mow at least 1 acre on single charge. I can tell you this, most all the reviews I read Ryobi batteries were wrong, i.e. people would say in 20 minutes it was dead? Kind of depends on what you doing. I get 6 AH every time and I generally finished after about 1 1/2 hrs. 30 mins for stopping and doing whatever.

Note: I have 2 6AHs, and 1 4AH batteries, they all fit into all of the equipment. I normally use the 4AH for the blower as it is lighter, one 6AH is for the edger & trimmer and I keep a 6AH in the mower so I am always good with plenty of power.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by RACarvalho

Geopolitics,supply chain issues and raw material scarcity may have had a lot to do with the decision.

Yes, plus acquisition is not completely unexpected since Winnebago started using Lithionics batteries in their EKKO which so far appears a home run for them. The EKKO compact Class C comes with Onan 2800 inverter-generator “plus” a Lithionics 320 Ah battery which powers a high-capacity inverter-charger. It’s no doubt high cost electrical but provides the best of all worlds at present technology.

As an option, buyer can eliminate Onan and add a second matching 320 Ah Lithionics battery. And for those with deep pockets, some dealers will install the second battery to a standard EKKO to end up with the Onan plus 640 Ah of battery.

Anyway, it seems to me that Winnebago may be looking at offering more choices that involve both a small generator and also high-capacity batteries and inverters. All this sounds to me like Winnebago is developing their own version of the Battery-Only Volta system which is still very pricey.

The combination of having a small generator to charge batteries and power A/C for long periods, plus lithium batteries for everything else, makes sense and appears where Winnebago is headed.

For what it’s worth, Thor and others have some similar options as well, primarily in Class B van campers. Same idea should work equally as good in larger Class As and Cs.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

While it is true WBGO wants to be a leader if not already a pioneer in EV Motorhomes, I think there is another dominant reason for the acquisition. WBGO likes to crow that they Mfg 70- 80% of all of the parts that go into their RVs. It is true and pretty incredible. They state it is how they can control quality. I was surprised to learn that cabinetry, furniture etc is all made by WBGO.

I have always maintained that if I ever go Lithium it will be because I bought a new WBGO EV where it is a tried, true and proven system. Right now I am enjoying lead acid AGMs and generators like they going out of style.... wait they are; but you get my point. But who knows maybe one day they offer a kit whereby you replace an aging Onan with a new 50 or 30 Amp Lithium Power Center. If I can run my ACs 3 or 3 days without a charge, I will be all in.

FWIW I sold my Honda lawnmower last year and I have all Lithium lawn tools now. Lighter, quieter, no gas to store and maintain and no maintenance.

You are a little late, that idea is here already though I’m not sure if it’s just a dream or if they are actually in production. It’s a package similar to a generator and comes in different power and energy levels. Other companies may have similar units. I saw this weeks ago and saved picture as a reminder to research later.

The amount of energy stored in batteries is always going to be limited compared to a generator, which makes powering air conditioners for days impractical — at least within reasonable cost today. If not for long-term air conditioning, I think elimination of generator has a chance.

What’s interesting is that lithium batteries and inverters can now produce very high power levels at reasonable costs. They just can’t do it for long because of limited battery energy storage. Picture below shows a power unit similar to portable units like a Bluetti but much larger. Specs suggest many are physically larger than Onan 4000 or 5500 generators.
.

[Lt Keefer]

Thanks dk. My Deere is only 2 years old, so it will probably outlast me. But for the trimming, pruning and blowing I have been using lithium for 5 years. No more problems with stale gas in two strokers, etc. When the RV industry catches up to the lawn equipment companies I will be a happy camper. One of the problems I see currently, is the 'remote' controls RV companies install.
Touch pads that control everything seem to add a layer of complexity that van dwellers don't experience. In a camper van it's basically solar panel to controller to battery to inverter. Pretty straight forward. Some of them throw in a DC to DC charger for power from the alternator. But anyway, thanks again for the info.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chance

You are a little late, that idea is here already though I’m not sure if it’s just a dream or if they are actually in production. It’s a package similar to a generator and comes in different power and energy levels. Other companies may have similar units. I saw this weeks ago and saved picture as a reminder to research later.

The amount of energy stored in batteries is always going to be limited compared to a generator, which makes powering air conditioners for days impractical — at least within reasonable cost today. If not for long-term air conditioning, I think elimination of generator has a chance.

What’s interesting is that lithium batteries and inverters can now produce very high power levels at reasonable costs. They just can’t do it for long because of limited battery energy storage. Picture below shows a power unit similar to portable units like a Bluetti but much larger. Specs suggest many are physically larger than Onan 4000 or 5500 generators.
.

Yeah, I am notorious for being late to the party. They generally don't start until I get there anyway

I bought my mom one of those smaller Bluetti's for Christmas and she uses al the time now. Kind of cool how you can control it with your phone without having to get up.

Right now I don't have a true requirement for Lithium. So I need my already paid genny that runs off gas that is already in the RV 80 hours a year. I wouldn't be surprised if I had a smaller genny I may have to run it 160 hrs per year just to keep lithium charged.

But this is where I don't have to be an expert. I will just buy what WBGO makes and I am good. Lot of stuff came with the coach that I didn't know I needed or wanted until a year or two of usage. Gas / Electric fridge being one example. It is like I got my Box and the Kits are optional.

[Jimbo56]

At the recent RV show in Charlotte I had a conversation with a Forest River rep. I was seeing a lot of 12v refrigerators in new models. According to him, over the next few years, all RV’s will come supplied with 12v fridge, induction cooktop, and 12v water heater. Onboard propane will be phased out. All will have inverters and lithium based batteries with a generator.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Jimbo56

At the recent RV show in Charlotte I had a conversation with a Forest River rep. I was seeing a lot of 12v refrigerators in new models. According to him, over the next few years, all RV’s will come supplied with 12v fridge, induction cooktop, and 12v water heater. Onboard propane will be phased out. All will have inverters and lithium based batteries with a generator.

That was kind of my point, when they start to make them ALL that way, and if I want to buy another it will be that way. I don't have to reengineer what they make today, or what I have unless the mod is simple, risk free and well within my budget ( no pay back and no up benefit to me right now).

i.e. I bought propane for the 1st time last week in over a year. My inside gauge said empty for 1st time ever; but we still had gas, meaning we never fully ran out. Since I was on the road, I got a chance to stop at a Tractor Supply Center for the 1st time. Their propane was $3.29 and I spent $25. I normally get propane for $2.29 at U Haul in Dallas. Either way, Propane is none issue to me, but I rather not have Propane in RV, but I want ALL propane does in the RV with no issues. When that day comes and I need new RV; that is what I will buy. It is akin to why I insisted on buying a RV with 2 ACs. I want what I want when I want it

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Jimbo56

At the recent RV show in Charlotte I had a conversation with a Forest River rep. I was seeing a lot of 12v refrigerators in new models. According to him, over the next few years, all RV’s will come supplied with 12v fridge, induction cooktop, and 12v water heater. Onboard propane will be phased out. All will have inverters and lithium based batteries with a generator.

Can't see that - same category as 12 volt fireplace - lotsa amps at 12 VDC and BIG wires to carry the load. Propane is so much more practical.

12 volt fridge makes sense - 12 volt induction cooktop and 12 volt water heater do not.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Can't see that - same category as 12 volt fireplace - lotsa amps at 12 VDC and BIG wires to carry the load. Propane is so much more practical.

12 volt fridge makes sense - 12 volt induction cooktop and 12 volt water heater do not.

I think some manufacturers’ main goal is to eliminate propane system from some RVs, and make them a single-fuel rig. In my home I use natural gas only for furnace and hot water, everything else being electric. Some new rigs do the same except furnace and hot water are fueled by diesel or gasoline, which probably saves costs by eliminating propane system. It also makes it convenient for owner, so a win-win for some/many buyers. As far as I know, giving up propane cooktop is main disadvantage for some who don’t like electric.


Interesting you mention 12V for water heater because I helped my son design a trailer living quarters modification for light camping that uses 12V element in water heater. It works great because excess solar keeps water hot during day, and if needed can also heat from batteries. Element isn’t that powerful so it takes a few minutes to heat, and recovery is slower than normal, but more than fast enough for requirement. Wiring is short and doesn’t pull as much power as a typical inverter so wire gauge isn’t as large as you’d think. I don’t recall details but it’s well under 1,000 Watts and heats small-capacity tank in reasonable time. You should run the numbers if curious.

If designing a van conversion for myself, I would go all electric including water heater, though I’d buy a dual 12 VDC and 120 VAC unit. For boondocking without a generator, 50 Amps or so from alternator could heat all the water I’d need prior to stopping, without having to use inverter (also an option if only 120 VAC). At campgrounds the water heater can be powered from the more powerful 120 VAC element.

I know it sounds crazy, but even 50A (600~700 Watts) can heat a lot of water given a few hours of driving, or solar during day. In my son’s case the trailer is all solar unless plugged-in, which is rare. Usual one or two days camping is 100% solar.

[atreis]

You'd still need/want propane for the furnace, so why not heat water with propane too? Just having trouble seeing that one happening on most units... 12V fridge is already happening, and electric induction cooktops could actually be nice with an inverter.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by atreis

You'd still need/want propane for the furnace, so why not heat water with propane too? Just having trouble seeing that one happening on most units... 12V fridge is already happening, and electric induction cooktops could actually be nice with an inverter.

The systems I’m referring to do not have propane. They are common already on some motorhomes. They heat water with diesel fuel on diesel rigs and with gasoline fuel on gasoline rigs, and then use hot water for space heat.

Combining hot water and space heat through some form of hydronic system or heat exchanger has been around for a while with diesel, but now available for gasoline rigs too. I like the concept but would like to see more data on newer gasoline variants.

Below is one example from Truma. Note it can also power/heat from campground electricity when plugged in.

https://truma.net/heating-systems/tr...d-comfort-plus

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Chance

I think some manufacturers’ main goal is to eliminate propane system from some RVs, and make them a single-fuel rig. In my home I use natural gas only for furnace and hot water, everything else being electric. Some new rigs do the same except furnace and hot water are fueled by diesel or gasoline, which probably saves costs by eliminating propane system. It also makes it convenient for owner, so a win-win for some/many buyers. As far as I know, giving up propane cooktop is main disadvantage for some who don’t like electric.


Interesting you mention 12V for water heater because I helped my son design a trailer living quarters modification for light camping that uses 12V element in water heater. It works great because excess solar keeps water hot during day, and if needed can also heat from batteries. Element isn’t that powerful so it takes a few minutes to heat, and recovery is slower than normal, but more than fast enough for requirement. Wiring is short and doesn’t pull as much power as a typical inverter so wire gauge isn’t as large as you’d think. I don’t recall details but it’s well under 1,000 Watts and heats small-capacity tank in reasonable time. You should run the numbers if curious.

If designing a van conversion for myself, I would go all electric including water heater, though I’d buy a dual 12 VDC and 120 VAC unit. For boondocking without a generator, 50 Amps or so from alternator could heat all the water I’d need prior to stopping, without having to use inverter (also an option if only 120 VAC). At campgrounds the water heater can be powered from the more powerful 120 VAC element.

I know it sounds crazy, but even 50A (600~700 Watts) can heat a lot of water given a few hours of driving, or solar during day. In my son’s case the trailer is all solar unless plugged-in, which is rare. Usual one or two days camping is 100% solar.

Remember back in the 70's the push for the "All electric house"? Works pretty good unless you need to do some serious winter heating. Different fuels just work better for different jobs.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Remember back in the 70's the push for the "All electric house"? Works pretty good unless you need to do some serious winter heating. Different fuels just work better for different jobs.

Exactly. We mostly camp in Spring and Fall in mild weather, so our air conditioning and heat requirements are modest. We could easily go 100% electric with right RV design. If we had enough battery capacity for A/C, it would also keep a well-insulated van warm enough overnight when boondocking occasionally. At campgrounds it’s never an issue anyway. A generator would be great as a backup, but not essential over 99% of time.

[Scubawise]

God would love an all battery rv. BUT from our experience, camping on and off year round and really taking advantage of our time left on earth, the generator has been an absolute must. 457 hours on generator in 2 years. Also the AGS that someone here used a lot and explained to us is a God send.
With dogs we set AGS go out and no limitations.
Generator starts, AC goes on and NO worries.