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Old 10-19-2019, 10:31 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Not without a comfort pony it won't.

Michael, where do YOU stop?
Just far enough to include your wife, or far enough to allow that truck inside a convenience store?
Your answers seem self serving, not public interest guided.
The key to the entire ADA law is reasonableness. No, we cannot ride it into a convenience store, but we can ride it right up to the side just like a bicycle. Not asking for anything but fairness and reasonableness. Besides right is right and sometimes we must not back down. And it may just help somebody down the road.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
We all know it would never stop.
Today someone wants a golf cart type vehicle that is possibly not what the op wants us to believe it is, tomorrow I'll need my
'comfort pet moose' to ride with me in my 'comfort dragster' while cutting through a wedding reception at the park.

There has to be a line. EVERYONE reasonable understands ANY limitation be it not eating the whole bag of holloween candy or limiting vehicle types in any area or ponies shouldn't be comfort animals on airplanes. Yet the line is challenged by that six year old, that vehicle owner and that, entitled above all others, pony owner.

I'm not so selfish as to need a comfort dragster. Some people are. Your State is wise in knowing this.
Almost everyone on this forum knows of length restrictions on rv's. If I need that extra length due to claustrophobia do I stomp my feet or do I comply to the unreasonable and arbitrary(to me) length limit?
This is not selfish in that we are not asking for anything to be built or even anybody to be inconvenienced in anyway whatsoever. We are simply asking not to be given a ticket and/or worse for simply driving the OPDMD on the same paths where others are walking, playing, bicycling, skateboarding, etc. Of course reasonable speed limits like no faster than a walking pace when around pedestrians, turn signals, some kind of braking, etc. just like Florida and many, many other states have implemented. Besides being the right thing to do, it's the law of the land. BTW, if Paul Revere, et al, didn't stomp there feet, the United States may not exist, and if it did it most probably wouldn't exist as it did now. Sometimes, a stand must be taken.
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Old 10-19-2019, 10:53 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by dstankov View Post
Cricket's web site calls it an "RV Golf Cart" and no where on the site is it classified an ADA mobility scooter. I am also considered permanently disabled and I can understand why my home state says no to the cricket. It is a 2 seat minature golf cart.

Thank you Virginia for getting this right.
Ummmmm, no Virginia is not supreme to the Federal government, so no Virginia did get it wrong. Alabama went through the same thing, was sued and the justice system said Alabama was wrong. Indeed, this mobility device has 2 seats because sometimes my wife's medications do not allow her to operate a motor vehicle. If she doesn't take the medications, then the pain is to great for her to even ride in the vehicle. Virginia is not only legally incorrect, they are morally incorrect in that it is not hurting anyone to allow handicap people reasonable access, but it is hurting people to not allow reasonable access. Sorry, but it's still Boo on Virginia for discriminating against those with mobility handicaps.

The Federal Law
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:01 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I will take your example of a knock on them preventing specific parks as unsafe by an extreme analogy for illustrative purposes. If the Grand Canyon Park was in Virginia and managed to make the list of exclusions for motorized vehicle would that surprise you?
The Grand Canyon does allow OPDMD. Sorry, but the wonderful dimensions we have had opened to us by the state of Florida's adherence to the ADA law tells me that the correct thing is to let OPDMD's free.
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Old 10-19-2019, 11:10 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dstankov View Post
Cricket's web site calls it an "RV Golf Cart" and no where on the site is it classified an ADA mobility scooter. I am also considered permanently disabled and I can understand why my home state says no to the cricket. It is a 2 seat minature golf cart.

Thank you Virginia for getting this right.
I guess this veteran is thanked or welcomed in Virginia State Parks. https://forums.mtbr.com/e-bikes/hand...e-1023803.html
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:05 AM   #26
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Disabled since 1968, 100% disabled vet. I've found some laws and regulations impede things I want or want to do. I never felt so special a reg or law needed changed to suit me, I adapted. If some would put 10% of the b!tch and wine into looking for a solution all would be better off. If in OPs situation 1st would be to ask for a site close to desired amenity. RVs come with bath facilities, possibly making what he has more accessible? Try reaching a little deeper and use a private CG. The best might be to leave the RV home and get a 1st floor motel room. Some of us just cannot take the fact the world does not revolve around them. Adapt & Overcome!
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:36 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by OldWEB View Post
https://www.ada.gov/opdmd.htm clearly states my motorized unit should be allowed indoors too.


Those custom wheels stood out for that OPDMD , but sir your picture and point is well played
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Old 10-20-2019, 12:45 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by RVMichael View Post
The Grand Canyon does allow OPDMD. Sorry, but the wonderful dimensions we have had opened to us by the state of Florida's adherence to the ADA law tells me that the correct thing is to let OPDMD's free.
I don't think so? Have you ever been? It is not allowed to take OPDMD on the paths down the Grand Canyon. Only thing I witness being allowed was the accompanying mule she could ride. Regardless you missed my point, which was not to say you couldn't carry a OPDMD to Grand Canyon, but was that certain areas, paths, walkways or whatever you wish to call them do not allow OPDMDs allowed in specific areas due to safety concern. I assumed that Grand Canyon was blatant obvious examples of why Virginia in allows in certain areas and not others. But hey, I live in Texas and have no problem with you taking the fight to Virginia. Good luck
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Old 10-20-2019, 07:07 AM   #29
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Warning VA....

Lets see now..what am I missing here. What I do know is the Federal ADA Law is the law of the land. The state can not take away from the law of the land which means that the state must comply. The state ac add to the Fed ADA Law but the state can not take away any power from the FED ADA Law. Under the Fed ADA law and it's clause of reasonable accommodation is what many would believe to be a gray area open to decides reasonable accommodation surely not the person who thinks the person protected under the Fed ADA Law has that decision to make. In this case the state is right if they think they are and can stay on the decision until it's decision is challenged by the FED or a complaint is filled by or on behalf of a person or persons covered by the Fed ADA Law. The surely would have to be answered in the CourtSystem and that being the Fed System. The sole decision would be made by the Federal Judge. If the Judge decides that the state was wrong they would have to change the way the handle enforcing the law. The Fed would give the state time to make the necessary changes as per the Fed Court 's decision and again the state would have the right to appeal the Fed decision. With my experience with the Fed Court System the appeal and decision could take a year if not longer. My question is so what was gained by any of the parties? It would be a costly endeavor to take this to trail unless one had an activist group take it on. If they won could the party who was wronged get a monetary award...depends on the court nd the state would appeal that.
Lastly, the statement was made that ( to some extend ) that the State of NY law was more reasonable with the mobile medical devices...I question that as being a resident of NY , I find most everything they do is unreasonable but not so on the Federal ADA Law. So I would have to really sit down and read the VA Law to see if they are not in compliance with the Fed ADA Law.. I am sure that Va can place restrictions based upon public safety issues within it's parks. if the state restricts one section of road or trail but give access to the same area via another path, road or trail they likely did not infringe on anyone's right. Like in NY state under that ADA law if the require a helmet or other safety head gear that is the law you also need to be in compliance and they can cite you if not and likely not let you operate the device. So good luck in what you are attempting to do but I can not see any fault by Va and I am a Disabled Combat Veteran with mobility issues. Perhaps they have an access entrance that should have been used JMV . Piper K9
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Old 10-20-2019, 11:48 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Piper K9 View Post
Lets see now..what am I missing here. What I do know is the Federal ADA Law is the law of the land. The state can not take away from the law of the land which means that the state must comply. The state ac add to the Fed ADA Law but the state can not take away any power from the FED ADA Law. Under the Fed ADA law and it's clause of reasonable accommodation is what many would believe to be a gray area open to decides reasonable accommodation surely not the person who thinks the person protected under the Fed ADA Law has that decision to make. In this case the state is right if they think they are and can stay on the decision until it's decision is challenged by the FED or a complaint is filled by or on behalf of a person or persons covered by the Fed ADA Law. The surely would have to be answered in the CourtSystem and that being the Fed System. The sole decision would be made by the Federal Judge. If the Judge decides that the state was wrong they would have to change the way the handle enforcing the law. The Fed would give the state time to make the necessary changes as per the Fed Court 's decision and again the state would have the right to appeal the Fed decision. With my experience with the Fed Court System the appeal and decision could take a year if not longer. My question is so what was gained by any of the parties? It would be a costly endeavor to take this to trail unless one had an activist group take it on. If they won could the party who was wronged get a monetary award...depends on the court nd the state would appeal that.
Lastly, the statement was made that ( to some extend ) that the State of NY law was more reasonable with the mobile medical devices...I question that as being a resident of NY , I find most everything they do is unreasonable but not so on the Federal ADA Law. So I would have to really sit down and read the VA Law to see if they are not in compliance with the Fed ADA Law.. I am sure that Va can place restrictions based upon public safety issues within it's parks. if the state restricts one section of road or trail but give access to the same area via another path, road or trail they likely did not infringe on anyone's right. Like in NY state under that ADA law if the require a helmet or other safety head gear that is the law you also need to be in compliance and they can cite you if not and likely not let you operate the device. So good luck in what you are attempting to do but I can not see any fault by Va and I am a Disabled Combat Veteran with mobility issues. Perhaps they have an access entrance that should have been used JMV . Piper K9
Nicely thought out and reasoned. This is not a new law, but has been tested in multiple court cases. Alabama lost when it tried to ban OPDMDs. Disney World won on banning Segues (sp?) because it promised to develop and use stand up riding devices. What I fault the Virginia State Parks is the very restrictive use of OPDMDs. We are not talking about hordes of any style golf cart, but allowing those with handicap placards to use bonafide helps to people with mobility handicaps. Due to the large number of seniors in Florida they have been forced to resolve the issue to a nice compromise and it is embedded in the rangers operations manual and we have received zero negative responses from the 43 Florida state parks we have visited. We don't want any special trails built or any money to be spent. We just want to go where pedestrians and bicycles can go.
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Old 10-20-2019, 02:26 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
I don't think so? Have you ever been? It is not allowed to take OPDMD on the paths down the Grand Canyon. Only thing I witness being allowed was the accompanying mule she could ride. Regardless you missed my point, which was not to say you couldn't carry a OPDMD to Grand Canyon, but was that certain areas, paths, walkways or whatever you wish to call them do not allow OPDMDs allowed in specific areas due to safety concern. I assumed that Grand Canyon was blatant obvious examples of why Virginia in allows in certain areas and not others. But hey, I live in Texas and have no problem with you taking the fight to Virginia. Good luck
You are right in that I did not completely understand your point. Indeed there are many many trails an OPDMD cannot go down like the trail down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon. There are many many times in Florida we simply had to turn around because of nature or stairs leading to a boardwalk. We are not even asking to have ramps built or anything like that. We are asking to be able to go down the roads around the RV part of the camp and basically where others go where it makes sense. We are not asking that any trails be specially built or any other special considerations. Simply to be able to go where others go using bicycles, walking, and so on. Virginia has basically restricted to practically zero use of OPDMD's and that is what we are objecting to.
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Old 10-20-2019, 02:36 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dkoldman View Post
Those custom wheels stood out for that OPDMD , but sir your picture and point is well played
LOL, thanks for injecting a little levity into this discussion. Believe it or not, the Cricket can fit in the storage space of a Honda CRV and even some fifth wheels.

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Old 10-20-2019, 02:48 PM   #33
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For those wondering about 4 wheel scooters designed to assist basic mobility, here's a page that shows all the many possibilities out there. 4 wheel scooters designed to assist basic mobility
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:04 PM   #34
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For any lawyer types, here's a link to the exact ADA law regarding OPDMD. Exact ADA Law, OPDMD
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Old 10-20-2019, 03:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by RVMichael View Post
.....cut.... We just want to go where pedestrians and bicycles can go.
This part is clear, concise, and reasonable.

What I think most are not following is why a handicap person should have the right to use a form of transportation/mobility that is otherwise illegal to everyone else.

Context in this case would go a long ways towards understanding. For example, instead of walking, would she have been allowed to use a wheelchair? How about a mobility scooter? Short of a prohibited golf cart, what other options are available?

Youíve covered whatís not allowed, but havenít what is allowed in as much detail. That would help a lot in understanding your position.


P.S. ó I have to deal with wheelchairs for my parents everywhere we go, so I can appreciate the convenience these laws have provided over the years.
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:58 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Chance View Post
This part is clear, concise, and reasonable.

What I think most are not following is why a handicap person should have the right to use a form of transportation/mobility that is otherwise illegal to everyone else.
Because it is reasonable to provide some accommodation to physically handicapped. After all they are part owners of the park too. As long as nobody else's rights/comforts/etc. are diminished, then it should be why not. I wish you could experience the joy my wife has found in that she can experience the state parks pretty much like everybody else. I remember the tears and pure sadnesss like I had never seen from her when she found out that her previously active lifestyle of walking 3 miles a day would be no more. Virginia's unreasonableness put her back into the sadness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
This part is clear, concise, and reasonable.

Context in this case would go a long ways towards understanding. For example, instead of walking, would she have been allowed to use a wheelchair? How about a mobility scooter? Short of a prohibited golf cart, what other options are available?
According to the Federal ADA law, this is a mobility scooter and was designed for this purpose. It meets the parameters of the Federal law just perfectly. Alot of the usual niceties, like suspension and normal size batteries found on full blown golf carts are not found on this because it is more of a mobility device and as much as a golf cart. Initially, she was prohibited from even taking the OPDMD from the RV to the shower. After a conversation with the ranger, he begrudgingly gave permission for trips from the RV to the shower and back, even though this was technically against the law. They said we cold take the OPDMD on the trail if we put the OPDMD onto the ramp where it's carried on the RV, take the RV to the special purpose trailhead, unload the OPDMD, go park the RV in a suitable location if possible (the spots at the trailhead were designed for cars), reload the OPDMD onto the RV, and then take the RV back to our site. Ummm, no, that isn't a reasonable solution, but Virginia apparently doesn't care.

Alternatives -- We first considered bicycles and even test drove some higher end bicycles and tricycles. However, that test almost ended in disaster and she almost wound up in the ditch and took a couple of weeks to recover from all the massive pain she experienced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
This part is clear, concise, and reasonable.

Youíve covered whatís not allowed, but havenít what is allowed in as much detail. That would help a lot in understanding your position.
In Virginia, not much is allowed according to state law. Reference the above example of how much effort is needed just to go down a trail. I imagine a manually powered wheelchair would be allowed, but to my understanding anything with a motor would not be allowed, except in special cases. I can envision a disabled Iraqi vet in a trackchair being told sorry, you can only use certain trails use a Virginia State Park despite giving both legs in the defense of our country. If true, this would indeed be shameful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chance View Post
This part is clear, concise, and reasonable.

P.S. ó I have to deal with wheelchairs for my parents everywhere we go, so I can appreciate the convenience these laws have provided over the years.
It's not just convenience, but sometimes life changing, like in my wife's case. Without the OPDMD, her ability to experience the great outdoors would be dramatically diminished.

My real beef is that her using her OPDMD is not going to start an avalanche of golf carts running around state parks. Just a spoonful of reasonableness adds tons and tons to her enjoyment of life. We are not asking for a lot here. Just a little kindness for a couple of old folks who have helped everybody for their entire lives and now just want to enjoy a special sunset just like everybody else.
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Old 10-20-2019, 10:24 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by CaptnJohn View Post
Disabled since 1968, 100% disabled vet. I've found some laws and regulations impede things I want or want to do. I never felt so special a reg or law needed changed to suit me, I adapted. If some would put 10% of the b!tch and wine into looking for a solution all would be better off. If in OPs situation 1st would be to ask for a site close to desired amenity. RVs come with bath facilities, possibly making what he has more accessible? Try reaching a little deeper and use a private CG. The best might be to leave the RV home and get a 1st floor motel room. Some of us just cannot take the fact the world does not revolve around them. Adapt & Overcome!
I agree 146%!
Complaining about the problem doesn't solve it; only action does!
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Old 10-21-2019, 01:21 PM   #38
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I agree 146%!
Complaining about the problem doesn't solve it; only action does!
Unfortunately, it's looking like a lawsuit like in Alabama.

My purpose of posting on here and a couple of other places was to publicize the facts of what Virginia's laws are. I guess I got my answer in that it seems getting the public to put pressure on the Virginia legislature to change the law is "quixotic".

Sigh, it would be cheaper for Virginia to change the law than to have to pay their own lawyers and the plantiff's lawyers when they lose. It appears there are lawyers who make a living just filing ADA lawsuits with serial plaintiffs with the large majority of them readability of websites these days.
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Old 10-21-2019, 01:55 PM   #39
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Lots of drama here over why a golf cart isn't considered a mobility scooter. Isn't that your biggest complaint? I'm sure it pissed you off that they wouldn't let her ride a golf cart wherever she wanted to...but...really?? I've never seen a two-seater mobility scooter with a beer cooler rack in the back. But...I have seen people with a legal single-seat, mobility scooter go just about anywhere they wanted to and people kindly opening doors and assisting them any way they could. Go back to the same place and try it again with the appropriate device...life will be much better.
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Old 10-21-2019, 02:35 PM   #40
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I agree: making a reasonable change in the law would seem to be the smartest course of action...


...If only the Politicians were smart enough to realize that.

Another tactic might be to get the Media involved.
If more folks know about the problem: it can help to "grease the skids".
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