inverter > generator > inverter

jbrosecity · 01-15-2022, 05:17 AM

I wonder if others have noticed this issue. When I set my auto gen start to 30 min minimum 2 hours max, and to kickin in at 12.0v, it does not run anywhere close to thirty minutes. It is set to stop at 13.2v but when it shuts down it only shows maybe 12.4v. I wish I had a manual for the autogen start. It is part of the smart touch screen controls and I can't figure where any manual for that whole unit is, even though I have downloaded all the manuals from the owner resource center.

In looking thru the various screens I see the name Vegatouch Mira. I don't know if that is the name of this touch screen or not. Most online references to that are the app for a smart phone. I'm not interested in that... only in trying to understand the functionality of the screen on the wall, and in particular the autogenstart.

Besides not bringing the batteries up to full charge (12.7v or thereabouts?) when autogenstart kicks off, it is not seamless transition to the inverter. (Xantrex, Inverter, Freedom-X2000) It *is* seamless when it starts up, but when it shuts down my satellite receiver loses power briefly and so it reboots. Very annoying. Seems like it should transition over to the inverter instantly with no loss of power, just like when the inverter transitions to generator power. FWIW, the same thing happens if running the generator manually (not with auto genstart) and I stop it. The receiver loses power and reboots. PITA!

Has anyone else experienced these issues? Anybody have a link to a manual for this thing? any input much appreciated

DavidEM · 01-15-2022, 12:35 PM

You can't depend on the voltage you read while charging. As soon as the generator and charging stops, the battery voltage will quickly drop. This is what I think you are seeing.

Try setting the voltage to the upper 13s if you want to charge to near full which is 12.6-12.7 volts (measured while resting for an hour).

David

**EA37TS** · 01-15-2022, 01:08 PM

VegaTouch Mira is the system in my rig. It is not just the app but the entire system.

The manual is available online. The range for stop at volts is 13.2 to 14.5. Normal voltage while the gen is running is around 13.7 on my rig.

Chance · 01-15-2022, 02:21 PM

I can think of two reasons satellite receiver loses power for too long that it requires rebooting. Question is, when you disconnect shore power (with generator off) does receiver reboot or does it continue to work seamlessly?

If it continues to work then inverter and its transfer switch is fast enough and problem is caused by generator shutting down. If receiver reboots anyway, then inverter transfer of power is not fast enough.

Have you noticed if receiver reboots when disconnecting shore power (with generator off)? I’d want to know that first to determine root cause of problem.

I think it is possible that as generator spins down, the electrical frequency and or voltage may dip down long enough to upset sensitive electronics. I would want to know which of the two is more likely the root cause. I know the generator’s transfer switch should open before frequency and voltage drops too much, but I would want to rule that out by testing with sudden interruption of shore power.

Just my 2 cents ...

**EA37TS** · 01-15-2022, 03:04 PM

The inverter has a lag going from bypass mode to battery mode. The Freedom X grid to battery transfer speed is configurable with 2 settings one faster than the other. Read your manual.

OldWEB · 01-15-2022, 03:28 PM

The above ^^^^^ and....
When running the generator and shutting it down, the ATS has a very slow transfer time back to shore power and delicate electronics may lose their 'memory'. To prevent this from happening, set your inverter to UPS but the manual comes with a warning when using that mode. Read the manual.

jbrosecity · 01-15-2022, 04:02 PM

Lots of good input here already after a single day... great forum. I've been a member of many forums including one for my country coach, one for my Tiffin bus, one for my forest river forester and now this one. I've also been a member of the Keystone forum for my avalanche and the somewhat useless forum for my Vanleigh Vilano (no enough owners out there on that one suspect, bur it is a terrific coach).

Anyhow Chance asked whether it does the same thing when disconnecting from shore power and I can't answer that at the moment as we are dry camped overnight in the parking lot behind a Cracker Barrel Restaurant. We're on our way to Las Vegas and were dealing with high winds coming up from LA so we laid over in Victorville and caught the friday night fish fry at CB... pretty tasty cod! Anyhow, I digress here, I'll test the transfer switch in Vegas when connected to shore power.

OldWeb and EA37TS mention the lag in transfer speed from gennie to battery - UPS sounds dicey as the manual says "Selecting APL - appliance sets the transfer time from line to battery to 20 ms. Selecting UPS (uninterruptible power supply) sets the transfer time from line to battery to 10 ms. NOTE: Do not connect motor loads when in UPS transfer mode. See “Inverter Applications” on page 64." I googled motor loads for insight and it mentions compressors and since we have a whirlpool residential fridge, probably not a good idea to select UPS mode as hard to tell if fridge compressor is running.

I have xantrex manual downloaded from here
https://www.xantrex.com/documents/Po...Rev-F)_ENG.pdf

will take some time to comb all thru that... the search feature doesn't turn up anything for APL or "battery transfer speed". If anyone can locate the passage for me about "transfer time from line to battery" from 20 ms to 10 ms, your help would be appreciated. I don't have time right now to RTFM right now... I searched the pdf for "Transfer Mode" and APL and 10 ms and came up with no instructions on how to change that setting. If mine is set to 20ms and I can change it to 10ms without hurting anything, perhaps that might do it! I am hopeful, anyhow.

Well we're off to vegas right now... I'll look in on the forum this evening! Thanks guys!!!

jbrosecity · 01-16-2022, 12:31 AM

little followup here. Chance asked whether the Satellite box also needs to reboot when you disconnect power at the pedestal. I just tested it... the answer is YES. Normally we don't experience this in an RV park unless there is a power failure. We have normally stowed the satellite dish, turned off the TV, etc before I disconnect from the pedestal... that is one of the last items before hitting the road. So I tested and it acts identically to when the Generator shuts off.

With the power pedestal this is not a problem, but with the generator, when you have it set to autogenstart and it kicks on for 30-60 minutes, for example, in order to charge up the batteries a bit, when it shuts off again, and the satellite box has to reboot that is a PITA, especially when dry camping for a day or two and the generator needs to start up occasionally.

So does that bit of information influence the answers here? The first thing I want to try is to reset the "transfer time from line to battery" from 20 ms to 10 ms, if that can be accomplished without the UPS setting which sounded like it could be a problem with a residential fridge and its compressor... motor loads. As I asked previously if someone could point out the section in the Xantrex manual on this topic. I googled it and the Xantrex FAQ came up:
https://www.xantrex.com/power-products-support/faq.aspx

but I didn't see anything about how to switch it there. Can anyone help?

joe

OldWEB · 01-16-2022, 01:08 AM

Pg 51 has the instructions on how to change a setting.
Pg 55 has the "Transfer Setting" (#11) which is to change it to 10ms (UPS) and that "Note" again!
I wondered if you entertained installing another inverter if this does not work out with the refrigerator? Just a small one, a few hundred watts to run the sat/tv setup...

**16ACE27** · 01-16-2022, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbrosecity

little followup here. Chance asked whether the Satellite box also needs to reboot when you disconnect power at the pedestal. I just tested it... the answer is YES. Normally we don't experience this in an RV park unless there is a power failure. We have normally stowed the satellite dish, turned off the TV, etc before I disconnect from the pedestal... that is one of the last items before hitting the road. So I tested and it acts identically to when the Generator shuts off.

With the power pedestal this is not a problem, but with the generator, when you have it set to autogenstart and it kicks on for 30-60 minutes, for example, in order to charge up the batteries a bit, when it shuts off again, and the satellite box has to reboot that is a PITA, especially when dry camping for a day or two and the generator needs to start up occasionally.

So does that bit of information influence the answers here? The first thing I want to try is to reset the "transfer time from line to battery" from 20 ms to 10 ms, if that can be accomplished without the UPS setting which sounded like it could be a problem with a residential fridge and its compressor... motor loads. As I asked previously if someone could point out the section in the Xantrex manual on this topic. I googled it and the Xantrex FAQ came up:
https://www.xantrex.com/power-products-support/faq.aspx

but I didn't see anything about how to switch it there. Can anyone help?

joe

Why would you think a separate setting to do the same thing the UPS setting does (shorten the transfer time from 20 ms to 10 ms), would have any different effect/caution regarding inductive loads? The UPS setting is what you seek.

jbrosecity · 01-16-2022, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Why would you think a separate setting to do the same thing the UPS setting does (shorten the transfer time from 20 ms to 10 ms), would have any different effect/caution regarding inductive loads? The UPS setting is what you seek.

Ok so based on the warning in the manual then "NOTE: Do not connect motor loads when in UPS transfer mode." and on p64 motor loads among other things refers to compressors like in our residential fridge, then I don't think using the UPS setting and shortening transfer time from 20 ms to 10 ms is going to help, unless I'm missing something.

I think maybe OLDWeb has an interesting idea... use a small inexpensive inverter for the satellite box. So when we have used small inverters in the past in the car like for the kids, I always plugged it into the cigarette lighter and that gave me the 110 outlet for kids' games or whatever. But in this case there *is* a 110 outlet which is losing power in the transition from 110 to the Xantrex. So what would I need to do then? Find a 12v always on source near that cabinet (maybe the light puck underneath the cabinet) and direct-wire a small inverter to that? I can mange that ok. Does that make sense?

The Hopper 3 receiver only pulls about 22-25W. I don't need it for the TV. It doesn't need to be turned back on... it stays powered and indicates the receiver has lost power. And anyway, I don't care if the TV loses power for a few seconds... it will start right back up... it is the reboot of the Hopper receiver that takes a while. But maybe this little inverter for $35 would be more than enough then?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B099WN1B9V/

I'm no electronics wizard... does this idea make sense?

jbrosecity · 01-17-2022, 04:34 PM

Well, I think this is the final word on this topic. I called and spoke to xantrex tech support... he consulted an engineer and confirmed what it says in the manual: you can change the transfer time from 20ms to 10ms but this can damage a residential fridge's compressor. And apparently the hopper 3's electronics is too sensitive to allow seamless transition from 110 (either generator or shore power) back over to inverter with a 20ms transfer time.

So the only suggestion is either what OldWeb suggested and use a separate small inverter just for the hopper... or alternatively to connect the fridge to a separate inverter. Much easier and safer to do the former. So I guess what I'll do is what I said previously... Find a 12v always-on source near that cabinet (maybe the light puck underneath the cabinet) and direct-wire a small inverter to that? I can manage that ok. Does that make sense?

williamprunty · 01-19-2022, 07:34 PM

Yes I am experiencing similar situation, I was able to determine the circuit breaker for the converter keeps popping when using AGS (intermittently), never happens on shore power.

Dealership at this time has not been able to figure out what’s going on. I replaced the converter but that did not resolve the issue.

EV2 · 01-19-2022, 07:51 PM

I use a small home UPS for the sat receiver and avoid all reboots with a little extra surge protection.

jbrosecity · 01-20-2022, 01:33 AM

small home UPS is the best idea yet... no need to set up a separate inverter and wire it to the 12v and all that. I'll order one on Amazon.

as for williamprunty... no circuit breaker issues here... strictly an issue of the transfer time of 20ms is not quick enough for the sat rcvr, EV2 seems to have solved it with a UPS backup and if the transfer time is still too slow under the UPS, then I can return it on Amazon prime no charge. But I'm guessing it will work

dkoldman · 01-20-2022, 02:00 AM

Couple of side thoughts related to your 1st post.

What are the Auto Conditions your generator will start? If it is low voltage and you have at 12.0vdc you will never get a full charge with only 2 hr runtime. I have different coach but AGS / Battery functions are the same. i.e. my AGS is set to Auto Start at 12.5 vdc. It takes it 2 to 3 hours to get it to be 12.9 or 13.0 vdc stable. (I have AGM batteries so voltage settings are different)

The 12.0vdc suggest you are letting your batteries go below 50% SOC. I am assuming you have FLA. Have you checked with voltmeter the actual battery voltage versus you display once the batteries have had a chance to be stable?

My AGS / Onan 5500 has built in minimum 10 min runtime. But it only ever comes in to play if I start manually, I just let it run 10 min before shutting off. If it is true AGS they only way that 10 minutes could be used if it the Auto Start is based on coach getting too hot, so the the genny kicks on and so do the ACs, it will run until the coach has reached the desired temp plus ensure the min run as run.

Some systems allow you to control the AGS stop time by User adding Stop Voltage. You can add a duration to be at that stop voltage before it actually stops, but where you were going was that you were not getting a full charge.

If you batteries are still good?, I will try to adjust so you are operating from 12.2 absolute lowest to at least 12.7 at full charge. Your batteries will last longer and you will have a tad extra reserve if situation warrants.

16Pal36.3 · 01-21-2022, 05:27 AM

If your generator stopping causes rebooting your satellite box pisses you off: Buy a small, self contained UPS and plug the Hopper or Wally into that. They are $45.00 - $100.00, get a small one. That way anything that causes that problem won't cause it unless the battery in your UPS goes dead. All my stuff keeps working. Hughes net, security cameras, desktop computer. Of course I have a bigger UPS...

I definitely agree about not over discharging your batteries. 12.2 volts is a good bottom for flooded cell, unless you like buying new batteries.
Solar panels are a great way to avoid generator auto starts too...

jbrosecity · 01-21-2022, 06:42 AM

thanks to everyone for all the comments... the UPS idea is perfect and I will be buying one soon. Even though we don't do that much dry camping, the idea that the reboot from the autogenstart shutting the generator down and rebooting the hopper just at the critical moment in a movie or in a game... well, it's well worth the $50 to avoid that mishap and as also suggested this will help avoid power surge damage to the hopper beyond that provided by the surge protector for the whole coach.

As for the voltage thing... yeah I know the common wisdom that you should not let wet cell batteries drop below 12.2v which is about 50%, but I watched carefully today. Drove 5 hours today so the alternator should have fully charged the batteries, right? This is a pretty new coach and with 10K miles on it, the Ford f-53 chassis has only been on the road less than 2 years.

Well when we pulled into the park, the very first thing I did after shutting off the engine was go look at the control panel which showed 13.2v on the HSE and 13.4 on the chassis. I watched for about 5 minutes as that voltage dropped with nothing more than the inverter running. After five minutes HSE steadied off at 12.5v and chassis at 12.6v. Only then did I plug into 50A shore power.

So my point is, if I have autogenstart set to come on at 12.2 my two 12v deep cell HSE batteries are not gonna give me much time at all with some LED lights on, the residential fridge on (maybe running some) and the inverter, my laptop and the Hopper and TV running. Maybe an hour or so. Maybe. By setting the floor to 12.0v I get a little more time before the generator kicks in. I don't know how much allowing the two batteries to drop to 12 volts a few times on an occasional dry camp night really harms them. I think the last night we spent without shorepower (at Cracker Barrel), I think we put on about 4-5 hours on the generator over the course of 12-14 hours, when I glanced at the hour meter in the morning.

when we bought this coach the stupid dealer failed to connect a new converter properly and even though I took it back to them, they failed miserably, and as a result my batteries ran totally flat 2-3 times, before *I* discovered the totally loose connections at the converter and tightened them. Since then it does its job and brings the batteries up to charge as much as they'll take... like I said this time I watched and they went to 13.2v instantly after shutting off the engine but within 5 minutes, using nothing they dropped to 12.5. So probably the damage has already been done to these batteries, and I am not too concerned about the further damage allowing them to drop to 12.0 before the generator kicks in. I'll probably have to replace them within a year anyhow. Would be my guess.

I welcome an electro wizard input... I am an electro dummy.

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