I've pre-reserved my ALL ELECTRIC Ford F150...

[lwmcguire]

Originally Posted by Lt Keefer

Interesting read but our nation has a weak electric grid that can barely support the current demand for heating/cooling, lighting and industrial power. We see it all the time with brown outs and rolling black outs. We need to let the grid catch up but with all of the hoops electric suppliers have to go through to bring on new generating stations is now the time for all of us to convert to electric vehicles? Specially ones that are used for recreation.

Electric vehicles have been around for quite some time and even with government tax incentives and high fuel costs the average consumer has no desire to purchase them. Sure, people with high incomes can afford them, but the folks that work at entry level or minimum wage sure can't afford them. Those folks buy pre-owned autos with IC engines. I also don't see any electric fleet vehicles in my area. The home health care people I see are all in little IC cars as are all the utility company trucks and their meter readers. Shoot, even the electric company drives traditional vehicles, not electric.

I don't have a crystal ball but I do read the paper and world governments are going to force us into electric vehicles whether we want them or not so we have to improve what's out there. I just hope I'm in the retirement home by then.

Relocating the carbon is what it is all about no matter the feasibility or true cost. Now well thought out and as you noted not prepared for it

[lwmcguire]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

If you live your life looking for "gremlins": you're bound to walk headlong into a tree...
I
They're not building anything significant right now, and we need to start increasing our power producing capacity.
While upgrading the infrastructure: they should consider increase the interconnectivity of the powergrid, and improve the ability to isolate "bad" sections, and re-route around them.
Otherwise: this will all sneak up on us, and you'll start seeing country-wide brown-outs...

Totally agree and the recent pipeline debacle proves we need a better grid and ways to protect it and isolate as well

[lwmcguire]

Originally Posted by Bob Nodine

On security, my two cents. We need to get over this desire to access everything from the internet and update software on a whim.

Mission critical industries like the power grid or a fuel pipeline should be on a private network and never connected to the internet. If they can run pipelines and power lines for thousands of miles they can run fiber communications along side it.

All safety related control equipment like in your car or an airplane or a nuclear power plant should not have managed memory and software updates should only be possible by direct connection. This is a hard pill to swallow because as programmers we have become accustom to others doing all the low level work and we just need to click on icons, etc.

Bob

We had smart meters installed years ago with the capability of the power company turning them on and off via the power digital signal. A hacker could easily do the same and it will happen at some point. We had a clerk get the wrong meter once and cut our power at 15 minutes until office closing time. By the time we figured out the meter shut down after checking the main breakers it required several calls and a 4 hour wait to get power back on. so much for technology when it isn't properly controlled

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Tesla over estimates their range. We'll see if the CyberTruck can get 500 miles out of it.

Yeah towing with the Model X reduces its range around 50%. I've been hoping Ford kind of cracked that nut a little so they don't get the range hit (not sure how). At any rate Ford has underestimated their BEV range (well ok at the moment there is only one: The Mach-E).

Range tests: https://insideevs.com/news/497559/ep...-rating-value/

Mach-E: https://insideevs.com/reviews/502506...ph-range-test/

Thanks for interesting links on range.

I don’t see a nut to crack, by Ford or any other manufacturer, unless we modify parameters of test (i.e. — change towing expectations). There isn’t much upside unless we change conditions by reducing requirements.

People on internet often focus on trailer weight, and ignore that when cruising on the highway, most of the energy is spent to overcome aerodynamic drag, not rolling resistance. I’m certain that a light but physically large trailer will reduce range more than a small 10,000-pound trailer that adds little drag. That is a physical fact that can’t be overcome with rhetoric or clever marketing.

When a gasoline F-150 goes from 24 MPG cruising on the highway to 8 MPG towing a large boxy trailer (doesn’t have to be that heavy) at the same 70 MPH, range is cut to 1/3 and it’s not because engine isn’t as efficient, it’s mostly because the engine has to work 3 times harder (make 3 times more power to hold same speed).

Electric trucks are not immune to this physical limitation. If they want to go farther per charge, they can slow down to reduce drag, or get a smaller and or much more aerodynamic trailer. I’d focus on drag more than weight. If anyone tries to tow a 5,000-pound camping trailer 8’-6” wide by 12’ tall, range at 70 MPH will be incredibly disappointing, so it doesn’t have to be a weight problem. We already know the F-150 can tow a freight train.

Anyway, I like the steady 70 MPH test better than the EPA for highway range or MPG. The difference is quite significant, which might explain why some vehicles like Ford and Tesla perform differently. EPA is relatively slow and includes slowing down and speeding up, so powertrain efficiency plays a different role versus low aerodynamic drag. I’m encouraged that the EPA range is as close as it is to real world steady 70 MPH.

[Muggs]

Drag is important in either gas or electric application. I cannot make any solid electric comments beyond higher load on gas will increase consumption. Higher loading on either ac or dc motor increases amp draw. When on battery reduces a/h capacity.

Real world experience: 1996 GMC Yukon 2wd Vortec 350.
Empty MPG 16 to 18 @ 65 MPH.
Towing open double axle trailer with 3000 lb Camaro totaling 5500 lbs MPG 11 to 12 same speed flat roads.
Towing 20' wide beam center console on single axle boat trailer totaling 3600 lbs MPG 7 to 8 same speed flat roads.

Saw same result with a 1999 Tahoe. Never had boat behind 2007 Suburban but MPG was impacted much harder by wind or even heavy rain causing drag.

Gives good example of drag vs weight. From stoplight to 50 MPH, the boat was quicker but beyond 50 MPH drag took over and headwind on highway was really felt with boat.

The RV stays in 9 to 11 MPG with or without trailer, big box may have minimized wind drag with boat and not see change SUVs had.

There are teslas at track and they are developing a class for electrics. The owners tell me they have to watch how many runs they make so they can get home. Full speed runs diminish battery charge quickly. I expect heavy hauling will cut range a lot, just no way to gauge how much untill they see real world use.

[Chance]

In an alternate universe, I’d try to keep trailer as small and aerodynamic as practical.

Glad to see Ford media page is showing new electric F-150 towing a relatively small Airstream camper. Compared to a typical trailer, it should provide significantly greater range.
.

[Bob Denman]

I like the technology that makes backing up a trailer easier...

[Muggs]

It will be interesting to see real world range onthese trucks. We are considering replacing our Suburban at some point. Just cannot justify cost when it only gets used for jockeying trailer around yard and home depot runs.

[Bob Denman]

In the meantime: the hybrids are looking more viable.
At least until the charging and power producing infrastructures get sorted out...

[TurnerFam]

Originally Posted by lwmcguire

Great overview and I have had a couple EV's starting with the infamous Volt. My point is you create a drag and that drag is solve by fossil fuel from the tow vehicle. Breaking or intentional slowing is the only time you would have a positive energy input, otherwise it is not feasible

right, agreed, but the dynamics are there to allow it to happen, IF you need to recharge the battery vehicle in the event of a real 'need' to do so - probably NOT something someone is going to be doing on a regular basis.

[lwmcguire]

Having owned over 45 Ford pickups over many years it was a bit of a shock when I used my F150 3.5 on the first long trip towing my 12 foot cargo trailer.

Normmost of towing was accomplished with the F350 6.7

Fuel milage typically 16-19 with the F350 and it dropped to 9-11 with the F150

To keep the milage in the 10 mpg range with the 3.5 Ecoboost I had to slow down to 65

With the 6.7 you could cruise 75-80

Torque is what it takes to tow and the energy to develop the level needed is the key

It will be a very long time before we're doing any heavy long range towing

I think the Lightening will be a great truck for what 90% of the users needs are

[Bob Denman]

"Torque is what twists the cap off your beer."

[Chance]

Originally Posted by lwmcguire

Great overview and I have had a couple EV's starting with the infamous Volt. My point is you create a drag and that drag is solve by fossil fuel from the tow vehicle. Breaking or intentional slowing is the only time you would have a positive energy input, otherwise it is not feasible

What do you mean by not being feasible? Does it mean you think it can’t be done or that it won’t save fuel, because these are two very different subjects?

You’re correct in that it won’t save fuel compared to charging off the grid, but when driving a 30,000-pound motorhome towing a 7,000-pound pickup (more or less) cross country, does a few kWh (or gallons of fuel) really matter? I think we are talking convenience here so that some guy traveling long distances doesn’t have to stop for an hour or two to charge their electric toad, and particularly when they have to disconnect and reconnect to charge it.

No doubt it’s not as energy efficient, but if you limit charging load to 10 kW (less than 15 HP), you could easily top off an electric toad without placing much burden on motorhome engine and drivetrain while cruising down the highway. And obviously it would be better to integrate controls between vehicles so that if going uphill or accelerating, toad charging is paused. During downhill or while decelerating, toad charging could be increased (same principle as smart alternator battery charging).

But wait, there is more. Always wanted to sound like a commercial.

We are discussing very basic engineering, but in the future as a next step beyond that, what would keep that electric F-150 or Mustang from using its tremendous power to assist the motorhome achieve much greater performance? Various companies are developing and testing electrified trailers so that small cars, SUV, and pickups can tow larger trailers. With proper software and communications, an F-150 could help a motorhome uphill and then recharge on way down. It is not science fiction, it will just take some work by smart people to get it done. The main problem I see is that there isn’t enough volume for it to justify the engineering, testing and approval process. That’s the main reason these ideas may not occur at all. We don’t have millions of motorhomes towing electric vehicles.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

What do you mean by not being feasible? Does it mean you think it can’t be done or that it won’t save fuel, because these are two very different subjects?

You’re correct in that it won’t save fuel compared to charging off the grid, but when driving a 30,000-pound motorhome towing a 7,000-pound pickup (more or less) cross country, does a few kWh (or gallons of fuel) really matter? I think we are talking convenience here so that some guy traveling long distances doesn’t have to stop for an hour or two to charge their electric toad, and particularly when they have to disconnect and reconnect to charge it.

No doubt it’s not as energy efficient, but if you limit charging load to 10 kW (less than 15 HP), you could easily top off an electric toad without placing much burden on motorhome engine and drivetrain while cruising down the highway. And obviously it would be better to integrate controls between vehicles so that if going uphill or accelerating, toad charging is paused. During downhill or while decelerating, toad charging could be increased (same principle as smart alternator battery charging).

But wait, there is more. Always wanted to sound like a commercial.

We are discussing very basic engineering, but in the future as a next step beyond that, what would keep that electric F-150 or Mustang from using its tremendous power to assist the motorhome achieve much greater performance? Various companies are developing and testing electrified trailers so that small cars, SUV, and pickups can tow larger trailers. With proper software and communications, an F-150 could help a motorhome uphill and then recharge on way down. It is not science fiction, it will just take some work by smart people to get it done. The main problem I see is that there isn’t enough volume for it to justify the engineering, testing and approval process. That’s the main reason these ideas may not occur at all. We don’t have millions of motorhomes towing electric vehicles.

Funny you should pick 10kW. 10kW is about what the average Level-2 EVSE provides the car at an owner's home.

On most EVs 10kW will charge them around 15-25 miles/hour (e.g. provide an extra 15-25 miles of range added per hour of charging).

10 kW ~= 40 amps @ 240V.

[JamieGeek]

Here is a great explainer on the current state of Li-Ion batteries (and kind of long):
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021...der-your-nose/

[Muggs]

Range/charging time will be the ultimate test. Currently the ease of either gas/diesel is refuel in a matter of minutes and a 400 mile range is within reason.

When it comes to all electric, you are looking at hours to achieve same result. There are applications where this works. My last job had a few people who drove electrics but had apartments within 3 miles. I was a 50 mile commute.

Now retired, I am 10 miles to a quick stop for gas/milk. 15 miles to full grocery and 30 to Home depot/walmart. Add into fact am rural and on 150 AMP service the power upgrade to support 2 vehicles, a primary and backup may not be readily available. My internet is dsl because only cables here are old phone lines. My phone hotspot finally works good here.

Add into this many of the next generation just cannot estimate range/charging as the previous, it will be an adventure. We fill all vehicles at 1/2 tank in case we need to leave area or have a power failure.

Another question is where power will come from? Nukes most effective but people are nervous. Pic of diesel generator to power reharge station that sitting underwater is parody of current completeness of thought.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Funny you should pick 10kW. 10kW is about what the average Level-2 EVSE provides the car at an owner's home.

On most EVs 10kW will charge them around 15-25 miles/hour (e.g. provide an extra 15-25 miles of range added per hour of charging).

10 kW ~= 40 amps @ 240V.

I chose 10 kW deliberately because it seems like a good realistic compromise that would work in real use. Adding 15~20 HP of load to a big diesel or even large truck gas V8 isn’t going to cause problems, yet 10 kW of charging for a few hours of driving should replenish whatever the toad uses exploring the area.

It’s highly unlikely this type of charging would be needed often in my opinion because when traveling cross country with a toad, I can’t imagine most RVers would leave their rigs unattended at a Walmart and drive off exploring for long distances. And if they don’t drive far, then they could explore many different days before running the EV battery low. Eventually, they would stop in campground to dump and refill water and could then charge overnight. I’m imagining that if owners used toad separately at all, it would be to get dinner or breakfast near where they boondocked.

If this ever happens at all, I expect it would be part of a much larger system where a company like Ford developed the software/technology that integrated/mated their electric vehicles with their motorhomes to gain a market advantage for both.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

I chose 10 kW deliberately because it seems like a good realistic compromise that would work in real use. Adding 15~20 HP of load to a big diesel or even large truck gas V8 isn’t going to cause problems, yet 10 kW of charging for a few hours of driving should replenish whatever the toad uses exploring the area.

It’s highly unlikely this type of charging would be needed often in my opinion because when traveling cross country with a toad, I can’t imagine most RVers would leave their rigs unattended at a Walmart and drive off exploring for long distances. And if they don’t drive far, then they could explore many different days before running the EV battery low. Eventually, they would stop in campground to dump and refill water and could then charge overnight. I’m imagining that if owners used toad separately at all, it would be to get dinner or breakfast near where they boondocked.

If this ever happens at all, I expect it would be part of a much larger system where a company like Ford developed the software/technology that integrated/mated their electric vehicles with their motorhomes to gain a market advantage for both.

Well since Ford does make the chassis for a lot of the RVs (B's, C's & A's) they would be in the position to write the software on both sides.

"Connect up your F-150 Lightning to your Ace on an F-53 chassis and take advantage of tow & charge"

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Well since Ford does make the chassis for a lot of the RVs (B's, C's & A's) they would be in the position to write the software on both sides.

"Connect up your F-150 Lightning to your Ace on an F-53 chassis and take advantage of tow & charge"

Yes, or “tow and power”, which could be more useful.

Want an extra 100 HP for motorhome to climb that hill without slowing — no problem.

The sky is the limit. If we can imagine how it could work, engineers can make it happen as long as there is a demand and buyers are willing to pay the premium.

[lwmcguire]

Originally Posted by Chance

What do you mean by not being feasible? Does it mean you think it can’t be done or that it won’t save fuel, because these are two very different subjects?

You’re correct in that it won’t save fuel compared to charging off the grid, but when driving a 30,000-pound motorhome towing a 7,000-pound pickup (more or less) cross country, does a few kWh (or gallons of fuel) really matter? I think we are talking convenience here so that some guy traveling long distances doesn’t have to stop for an hour or two to charge their electric toad, and particularly when they have to disconnect and reconnect to charge it.

No doubt it’s not as energy efficient, but if you limit charging load to 10 kW (less than 15 HP), you could easily top off an electric toad without placing much burden on motorhome engine and drivetrain while cruising down the highway. And obviously it would be better to integrate controls between vehicles so that if going uphill or accelerating, toad charging is paused. During downhill or while decelerating, toad charging could be increased (same principle as smart alternator battery charging).

But wait, there is more. Always wanted to sound like a commercial.

We are discussing very basic engineering, but in the future as a next step beyond that, what would keep that electric F-150 or Mustang from using its tremendous power to assist the motorhome achieve much greater performance? Various companies are developing and testing electrified trailers so that small cars, SUV, and pickups can tow larger trailers. With proper software and communications, an F-150 could help a motorhome uphill and then recharge on way down. It is not science fiction, it will just take some work by smart people to get it done. The main problem I see is that there isn’t enough volume for it to justify the engineering, testing and approval process. That’s the main reason these ideas may not occur at all. We don’t have millions of motorhomes towing electric vehicles.

Feasible means feasible, anything can be done if you throw enough money at it.

What sense in the carbon and renewable energy world does it make to burn more diesel to charge your electric Towed?

Sure you can burn more diesel but why not get an efficient diesel generator, well actually many motor homes do have one as I do, however still the overall goal of the new thinkers is to conserve energy or as the current plan abandon fossil fuel completely in a few years

So if you subscribe to that way as apparently our leaders and a great many do that doesn't fit their game plan

The new game plan seems to be solar and wind primarily not burning more diesel to charge your electric towed. now i did not say that way my way of thinking but it is prevalent and the auto manufactures have jumped in as you well know

Most of us have seen a Diesel locomotive or two pushing a train with a few more up front and they communicate to accomplish the task powering the electric motors

Sure you could engineer a tow bar capable of pushing a pusher or even an electric motor home. Going to be pretty complicated and has to be sturdy and of course pass DOT

So I repeat again in case you missed my point

It don't make sense charging a towed by burning more gasoline or diesel with the primary vehicle. In other words it simply isn't Feasible

Many motor homes don't have the extra power when pulling grades to spare the extra HP for the increased drag and many older units are going to run hot

Again it simply isn't isn't feasible