My 29M always smells bad

[Miramar Owner]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

What is the orange store? Or better what is considered a good AAV? Not sure how I know if I would need one, but if this a prevention thing; I am all for it?







I was not aware of any of these until these post. I have just did a little research and both are considered the best in the industry. I found this site that had a very good comparison, but if the ACE has endorsed Cyclone.... it is good enough for me



https://www.camperupgrade.com/360-siphon-vs-cyclone/



I also like the Cyclone because it is easier to follow how it works with the wind, it has resin to withstand UV (my RV is outside in Sun under tree uncovered), and the Cyclone installation seems like something I might try. I don't know if I need them, but I may order two to have in the RV like you have done. Maybe when RV is being serviced, I can sneak it in for the Dealer to do

I checked out the review/comparison... Don't know who they are that did the review but they don't know what they are talking about in regard to the 360 Siphon... There is no fan or any moving parts and it is UV protected. The key is the funnel insert in the sewer vent pipe and the design of the cap itself. That review is disingenuous at best.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

For DLOLDMAN: the "orange store" is Home Depot. The "blue store" is Lowes. I don't know what color Menards is.

A "good" AAV is any retail purchased AAV that replaces whatever the coach builder used. Made a big difference in previous TTs as well as this MH.

LOL, Orange Store / Home Depot - I would not have guessed that in a million years, but I certainly should have known. I may have just proved that there can be dumb questions The Blue, the Orange, and that Mart on the Wall are basically the only stores I ever go into. We hadn't had a odor problem (yet); but I love to learn something new. This is new to me; so I will go look at a few to see what they do and how they work; and if there is need or how easy it may be for me to replace mine. On the surface they appear to be just a device to let air in; so not clear on what makes a bad one?

Originally Posted by Miramar Owner

I checked out the review/comparison... Don't know who they are that did the review but they don't know what they are talking about in regard to the 360 Siphon... There is no fan or any moving parts and it is UV protected. The key is the funnel insert in the sewer vent pipe and the design of the cap itself. That review is disingenuous at best.

I am glad you chimed in as I was just about to order 2 of the Cyclones when I saw where some guy had taken one apart and I was going nuts because I was trying to see how the fan works Makes sense now since it does not have a fan. I also saw on Amazon where they specifically stated "Made of strong polycarbonate" hard to believe that this product would not be made to withstand being exposed to sun and high temperatures on the roofs? I think I follow the design to understand why funnel may prevent odors from flowing back down the wall, but I don't understand how it extracts odors from the pipe any differently than what I have now? The Cyclone design and technology is clear. I also don't like having to cut the existing pipe They should come with a spacer adapter, or allow you to adjust up or down the existing pipe. But if all else were truly equal, I would prefer the low profile and seemingly simplicity of the 360. If I have to pay to have them installed, this may have to wait until my year 3 of coach ownership. I have been giving myself $1,500 / year to spend on things to upgrade the coach from the money I didn't spend on buying an extended warranty (assuming no repairs that would otherwise have been covered by the warranty). I have already spent $3k of the total $7k allocated for the 1st 2 years. The new 125ah AGM Grp 31 batteries put me over the top.

[mcr1010]

I had a Cyclone on my 2015 Vegas, but after a few trips it had become inoperable. It made a constant bumping sound which was due to the wind turbulence created by the bathroom hatch cover in front of the vent. It eventually destroyed the bearings in it so I went with the 360 and no problem since. I had the Cyclones on my previous RV's and they worked just fine, but if you have one with a hatch cover in front of the vent it may not work after a few trips and it is noisy.

[OldWEB]

On our Hurricane, there is only one roof vent, directly above the black tank location. For the gray tank, under the kitchen sink is the AAV, so I assume there is no 'roof' vent for it? I will have to look into this closer.


For the OP, no one has mentioned that there could be a slow water leak somewhere. If it drips slow enough and gets into the plywood floor or similar, you do get that funky, mildew-y smell, unlike a sewer smell. So OP, do a good search for any wet spots around piping.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by OldWEB

On our Hurricane, there is only one roof vent, directly above the black tank location. For the gray tank, under the kitchen sink is the AAV, so I assume there is no 'roof' vent for it? I will have to look into this closer.


For the OP, no one has mentioned that there could be a slow water leak somewhere. If it drips slow enough and gets into the plywood floor or similar, you do get that funky, mildew-y smell, unlike a sewer smell. So OP, do a good search for any wet spots around piping.

Well actually I did suggest a leak in post #6, see point #5. It is also why I suggested they pull their plumbing diagram from Thor. They may have to wait until next week, if they are savvy with doing so online.

Attached is plumbing for my 29VE Sunstar. I think a fitting could also be loosened or maybe even separated. I think what we are learning today (me anyway) is that some odor is inherent in the designs; so some coaches may be worse than others, but there are better Roof Vents and AAV parts that are designed to help vent better.

I am surprised to learn that you don't have a vent for Gray tank? When I look at mine; I not only have a Gray roof vent, but two of the AAV's on the Gray tank. I have never pulled the paneling to even see or know what the plumbing in bathroom sinks looks like. Note: No AAV on the Black tank.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by mcr1010

I had a Cyclone on my 2015 Vegas, but after a few trips it had become inoperable. It made a constant bumping sound which was due to the wind turbulence created by the bathroom hatch cover in front of the vent. It eventually destroyed the bearings in it so I went with the 360 and no problem since. I had the Cyclones on my previous RV's and they worked just fine, but if you have one with a hatch cover in front of the vent it may not work after a few trips and it is noisy.

You raise an excellent point. I went to look at where mine would go and 1st thing I noticed is direct wind would be blocked by AC rooftop units. They are in front of and in between 2 of the ceiling fans, but got me to thinking that if blowing in the right direction and inside ceiling fans are not on, could it flow back into the coach? Also, I would need to measure how long the shark fins are because they could be close enough where they could hit each other or impact how one or the other works?

I just wish I knew what about the Siphon 360 design will force the tanks fumes out with wind differently than what I have now? I don't think I have problem with fumes coming back into coach on the side so funnel advantage doesn't seemingly give me anything, but an active system to constantly pull fumes out of both tanks with just minor winds is getting my attention.

[Bob Denman]

If your vents sit behind something big on your roof: it may be sitting in an area of negative air pressure...
That's a good thing!

[wrapped]

AAV. Look under your kitchen sink look for pipe sticking straight up with cap on top unscrew that cap you WILL smell the oder instantly if it is what you've been smelling aav is bad, replace with good residential AAV about $20.00 ,when they go bad you'll notice sink draining very slow.

[Bob Denman]

Cutting down on your intake of bean burritos might also help with unwanted odors...

[halfprice]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

You raise an excellent point. I went to look at where mine would go and 1st thing I noticed is direct wind would be blocked by AC rooftop units. They are in front of and in between 2 of the ceiling fans, but got me to thinking that if blowing in the right direction and inside ceiling fans are not on, could it flow back into the coach? Also, I would need to measure how long the shark fins are because they could be close enough where they could hit each other or impact how one or the other works?

I just wish I knew what about the Siphon 360 design will force the tanks fumes out with wind differently than what I have now? I don't think I have problem with fumes coming back into coach on the side so funnel advantage doesn't seemingly give me anything, but an active system to constantly pull fumes out of both tanks with just minor winds is getting my attention.

It works off this principle

For $40 and 30 minute Install it's well worth it

Jerry

[OldWEB]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Well actually I did suggest a leak in post #6, see point #5. It is also why I suggested they pull their plumbing diagram from Thor. They may have to wait until next week, if they are savvy with doing so online.

I am surprised to learn that you don't have a vent for Gray tank? When I look at mine; I not only have a Gray roof vent, but two of the AAV's on the Gray tank. I have never pulled the paneling to even see or know what the plumbing in bathroom sinks looks like. Note: No AAV on the Black tank.

My thought was the fresh/hot water piping leaking, but any plumbing drips would do it too and create a funky smell.

I looked at my one vent and do not see any way that it is not sealed to the roof membrane, no chance for a leak to get "into the wall" as some ascribe. Am I missing something on that thought?

[OldWEB]

The principle that Jerry refers to works off of a even cut piece of pipe. It has worked for years before in vault toilets where a slight wind will pull the odors out the vent, while replacement air goes in the 'one-holer'.
Now with a RV, the tanks are typically sealed with either P-traps or a ball valve on the toilet. Yer "Cyclone" or "Tornado" or plain old roof cap does nothing other than create a lower pressure in the tank, no replacement air can get in there until you flush or drain some water into the tank.
You allow a P-trap to dry out then with an odd air current swishing around "any type" of roof vent, it could push clean outside air into the tank and blow smelly stuff out the open P-trap.

So my thought is save the few pennies and ensure the roof cap is open, if smells get into the RV, there is another problem allowing the smell out of the tank.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by halfprice

It works off this principle

For $40 and 30 minute Install it's well worth it

JerryAttachment 32008

Thanks Jerry, I remember Bernoulli's equation back during my Calculus / Differential Equation classes years ago. I struggled with the concept then; so no surprise it would one day come back and bite me in the butt.

I found this video that helps better to explain how it works for the layman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Afh5-nTeeY

I think you and others that have chimed in have tilted me in favor of Siphon 360 ;although I will ask my dealer about it next week. It is a DIY job that I am capable of doing, but I am just too much of a coward to cut my existing vent pipe down And if I did, and I know this is something I must learn sooner or later; and that is dealing with Lap Sealant on the roof. All my existing sealant is black and the Siphon 360 seem to suggest a White Dicor non sagging lap sealant? I am perfectionist; so I would want all my sealant to be black so it looks uniform. Besides my Onan AGS/Generator & AGM Batteries, my Roof is my next Treasured part of my RV

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by OldWEB

The principle that Jerry refers to works off of a even cut piece of pipe. It has worked for years before in vault toilets where a slight wind will pull the odors out the vent, while replacement air goes in the 'one-holer'.
Now with a RV, the tanks are typically sealed with either P-traps or a ball valve on the toilet. Yer "Cyclone" or "Tornado" or plain old roof cap does nothing other than create a lower pressure in the tank, no replacement air can get in there until you flush or drain some water into the tank.
You allow a P-trap to dry out then with an odd air current swishing around "any type" of roof vent, it could push clean outside air into the tank and blow smelly stuff out the open P-trap.

So my thought is save the few pennies and ensure the roof cap is open, if smells get into the RV, there is another problem allowing the smell out of the tank.

This may be circular logic, but isn't this just like saying if all things are perfect the intended designs of all RV Mfg will work because in theory because the P Traps, Fittings and Toilet seals are perfectly sealed. But when ever one flushes the seal will be broken and some methane gas comes out because tank has positive pressure, water get flushed out of P trap or dries out in P trap similar can occur, or a defectives AAV.

So they way I follow is the Cyclone or the Siphon 360 is creating a negative pressure vortex (24/7) if you would that allows the methane gases to be extracted out; so even if you had a bad seal it is still drawing out gases so they don't go into cabin. Especially if coach is moving.

Did you ever confirm 100% that your coach does not have a roof vent for the gray tank? If so; does that mean you are 100% reliant on P traps? Do you even have or need AAVs given no roof vent?

[mikek]

I have a 24.1 Vegas. I had some odor by the kitchen sink. I took the sink out and replaced the sewer vent valve, but still had some odor. I found out that I had a slight propane leak in the stove burner valve that was causing the smell. Got that fixed pronto!

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by OldWEB

On our Hurricane, there is only one roof vent, directly above the black tank location. For the gray tank, under the kitchen sink is the AAV, so I assume there is no 'roof' vent for it? I will have to look into this closer.


For the OP, no one has mentioned that there could be a slow water leak somewhere. If it drips slow enough and gets into the plywood floor or similar, you do get that funky, mildew-y smell, unlike a sewer smell. So OP, do a good search for any wet spots around piping.

Yup... like in our house behind a bathroom wall. Galvanized drain pipe eventually rusts through. Very slow drip left that slight tell-tale musty sewer funk. All better now... that was a fun bathroom remodel.

Check your pex supply connections in that area. For slow, almost imperceptible leaks stuff a paper towel around fittings. Then check it often.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Thanks Jerry, I remember Bernoulli's equation back during my Calculus / Differential Equation classes years ago. I struggled with the concept then; so no surprise it would one day come back and bite me in the butt.

I found this video that helps better to explain how it works for the layman.

I think you and others that have chimed in have tilted me in favor of Siphon 360 ;although I will ask my dealer about it next week. It is a DIY job that I am capable of doing, but I am just too much of a coward to cut my existing vent pipe down And if I did, and I know this is something I must learn sooner or later; and that is dealing with Lap Sealant on the roof. All my existing sealant is black and the Siphon 360 seem to suggest a White Dicor non sagging lap sealant? I am perfectionist; so I would want all my sealant to be black so it looks uniform. Besides my Onan AGS/Generator & AGM Batteries, my Roof is my next Treasured part of my RV

My RV came with the 360 vents factory installed. They do seem to work as advertised. But that doesn't stop me from being irritated by infomercials which do not explain HOW or WHY (in detail) their proprietary widget works better than the "old fashioned" widget.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

My RV came with the 360 vents factory installed. They do seem to work as advertised. But that doesn't stop me from being irritated by infomercials which do not explain HOW or WHY (in detail) their proprietary widget works better than the "old fashioned" widget.

Siphon 360s are installed by Mfgs in 100s of RVs & Travel Trailers. I remember them now because they were in the Windsports / Hurricanes we never bought. Didn't think anything of it as it certainly was not a priority.

I do wish they were more open about the How & the Why, but from the best of research this is why...

1. When there is wind (any wind) it will flow through the opening and thus cause a slight updraft which is all that is needed to pull gases from tanks and prevent the gases from going through any cracks/leaks that may exist. The more wind (flow the better). The standard vents don't appear to be designed to allow this flow, they look more suited to prevent water / leaves etc from getting inside. 360 has the screen to block leaves etc. Note :Cyclone can do the same thing.

2. When there is no wind. I think 360 is pushing a technicality here, that is why it is likely not marketed? If there is no wind on the outside, then by definition the pressure has to be the exact same, (very rare but possible if stationary) So if pressure in the tank and outside is the same; then there is no movement (Bernoulli); If there is no movement; then there can be no Odors as the gases can't travel.

I think the pressure on outside generally speaking is lower thus why the standard vents can work, but based on winds or while traveling the standard vent may actually force positive air back through the vent pushing air into coach if there are leaks.

I don't have a odor problem, but the 360 and Cyclones are vastly superior than standard if for no other reason when there is wind, and while traveling. My money says that I may see a difference when flushing as well because it is extract gases all the time.

To do myself will be about $70. [$22/vent and $11/Manus Urethane Sealant 10ozs (Black) + Tax]. Add $150 more if I have to have a dealer install

[jbkonga]

Thank you all for your help. I've got the info that I need. Who knew so many folks would have such strong opinions, and knowledge about this sort of stuff.

Thanks again

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by jbkonga

Thank you all for your help. I've got the info that I need. Who knew so many folks would have such strong opinions, and knowledge about this sort of stuff.

Thanks again

You know the saying: Strong opinions are like strong odors... everybody has one... or something like that.