Posible Auto Transformer Ban.

[rynosback]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

Interesting stuff. I’ve got a Hughes Autoformer mounted in my electrical compartment and generally use it all the time. It only kicks in when voltage is 108 (I think). Before getting it I had seen voltages as low as 104 and 107-8 was not uncommon. I will be saddened if they are banned in RV parks as it works a treat. I’m a pretty upright, law abiding fellow but don’t see myself throwing it away anytime soon.

Keep it mounted in your electrical department and no one will ever know but you.

[rynosback]

Here is a question. From my understanding the Hughes Autoformer takes amps to raise the voltage. So if I’m plugged into a 50 amp service and the volts read 106volts. How is my Autoformer causing a fire hazard if I’m only drawing 40-45 amps? And the Autoformer is using 2-3 amps to boost the voltage. How is it putting a harmful demand on the campgrounds electrical system, if built correctly? Since I’m drawing less then my allotted 50 amps.

[Connieb]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

What you fail to realize is that 150amp service at a Main Panel is 240v service, meaning that each side of the panel provides 150amps - so that's 300amps maximum output before the main panel breaker would trip. 300amps would EASILY serve 10 campsites that are 30amps, and certainly ALL sites would not be 'using' 30amps at the same time 'all the time' regardless - it's baloney to make these statements as tho campgrounds don't know what they're doing, or that electrical requirements are somehow 'lax'.... believe me, electrical engineers tend to OVERESTIMATE, not the other way around.

Also, campgrounds don't have ANYTHING to do with VOLTAGE - that's the utility provider, and 120v of power is 120v of power - the campground has NOTHING to do with that, nor could they even if they wanted to. Voltage also has NOTHING to do with the size or numbers of breakers. Breakers are simply a switch, not a power supply.

Autoformers are overkill. Surge protectors are overkill. Worrying so much about these seemingly 'possibilities' as though they are everyday 'probabilities' is ludicrous... some will continue to make a big deal about it, while the rest of us will simply enjoy our RVing without concern. 100,000 plus miles over this continental U.S., Alaska, and most provinces in Canada - and never any issues or problems - but I'm sure, regardless, that some will continue to 'worry' all the time about every little 'thing' that can possibly happen just because you are 'plugging in' somewhere.


travel, enjoy! : ) it's all good !

Apparently you have never been in a campground that is supposed to have 50 amp service, but actually doesn't have. It WILL damage your ac, fridge, etc .one place didn't have enough power to run the fridge when everyone was using 2-3 AC's. The park was old and didn't have enough coming into it for the big rigs. Thank God for our auto former. It kept the fridge on .

[cavie]

How is it that the RV world is the one and only place where you will hear that a 50 amp service has 100 amps available??? Or a 150 amp service has 300 amps available??
Never in my 50 years as an electrician did I hear this until I joined an RV forum. I wish there was a way to stop it. There is no way an RV would ever be able to use twice the amperage so why talk about it and get the newbies thinking it is correct! There is no difference between RV 240 volt service and a home 240 volt service.

[TurnerFam]

Originally Posted by Connieb

Apparently you have never been in a campground that is supposed to have 50 amp service, but actually doesn't have. It WILL damage your ac, fridge, etc .one place didn't have enough power to run the fridge when everyone was using 2-3 AC's. The park was old and didn't have enough coming into it for the big rigs. Thank God for our auto former. It kept the fridge on .

what even in the world do you mean by 'doesn't actually HAVE 50amp service'? Amps have nothing to do with power, or voltage...

if the 'power'(volts) was not sufficient, and as you assume, could somehow 'hurt' appliances, how in the world then was 'everyone else using 2-3 AC's' at the same time, yet YOU could not? Why would this only effect the 'big rigs'?

I find these stories fascinating, as folks make assumptions about electricity and 'power', as though no one else is as smart as they are, and yet THEY are the only one having the problem!(?)... strange. Everyone else was enjoying themselves - I guess you were the only one with any 'low power'.

not sure I buy it...


enjoy !

[TurnerFam]

Originally Posted by cavie

How is it that the RV world is the one and only place where you will hear that a 50 amp service has 100 amps available??? Or a 150 amp service has 300 amps available?? ... There is no difference between RV 240 volt service and a home 240 volt service.

if you are assuming that home 240v service is the same as RV 50amp 240v service, then you actually may be wrong, much of the time... not from a 'technical' definition, but from a PRACTICAL one. Here's why:

- electricians, and the electrical industry, refer to AMPS by the number on the end of each breaker, whether that breaker is a 120v type, or a 240v double-pole type. At the same time, though, we know that 120v and 240v power is not the same - one is twice as much as the other - yet the AMPS we refer to are considered the 'same'.

- RVs with 50amp service panels, though, rarely use 240v service. While the 240v service DOES come into the RV's main panel, just like at home, the two 120v power legs are not combined on any of the breakers - no double-pole breakers to service any needs*. In essence, ALL the internal circuit breakers are 120v only, meaning that two separate feeds of a maximum amps of 50 on each power legs provides a total USABLE amperage of up to 100. That's REAL LIFE for the RV owner, who can then use much more amperage than might at first seem possible, especially when compared to the typical 30amp RV service, which really is only 30amps max.

- *while it's true that a few larger RVs make use of a 240v breaker set within their main panel to provide for a 240v clothes dryer, or similar appliance, it's rare. When any of us owners refer to having use of 100amps, we are simply referring to the 'real world' use of all of our 120v circuits, which, in the end, is all that matters. Could you simply change the RV world to make use of a 100amp outlet instead? Sure, but then you'd need a mighty bigger cord set, which would be unwieldy and heavier than they already are. Then you would also have the issue for the larger units of not having that 240v option.
At my home, if I have a 100amp Main Panel, and I only had 120v circuits, I would also have a usable 200amps of power - though my 'electrician' friend might not agree. Neither of us are 'right' or 'wrong', but it's just a more clarified way to describe it to new 50amp rv owners, and those who think that RV 30amp service is only '20amps less' than RV 50amp service.


Plug in, enjoy! : ) it's all relative...

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

if you are assuming that home 240v service is the same as RV 50amp 240v service, then you actually may be wrong, much of the time... not from a 'technical' definition, but from a PRACTICAL one. Here's why:

- electricians, and the electrical industry, refer to AMPS by the number on the end of each breaker, whether that breaker is a 120v type, or a 240v double-pole type. At the same time, though, we know that 120v and 240v power is not the same - one is twice as much as the other - yet the AMPS we refer to are considered the 'same'.

- RVs with 50amp service panels, though, rarely use 240v service. While the 240v service DOES come into the RV's main panel, just like at home, the two 120v power legs are not combined on any of the breakers - no double-pole breakers to service any needs*. In essence, ALL the internal circuit breakers are 120v only, meaning that two separate feeds of a maximum amps of 50 on each power legs provides a total USABLE amperage of up to 100. That's REAL LIFE for the RV owner, who can then use much more amperage than might at first seem possible, especially when compared to the typical 30amp RV service, which really is only 30amps max.

- *while it's true that a few larger RVs make use of a 240v breaker set within their main panel to provide for a 240v clothes dryer, or similar appliance, it's rare. When any of us owners refer to having use of 100amps, we are simply referring to the 'real world' use of all of our 120v circuits, which, in the end, is all that matters. Could you simply change the RV world to make use of a 100amp outlet instead? Sure, but then you'd need a mighty bigger cord set, which would be unwieldy and heavier than they already are. Then you would also have the issue for the larger units of not having that 240v option.
At my home, if I have a 100amp Main Panel, and I only had 120v circuits, I would also have a usable 200amps of power - though my 'electrician' friend might not agree. Neither of us are 'right' or 'wrong', but it's just a more clarified way to describe it to new 50amp rv owners, and those who think that RV 30amp service is only '20amps less' than RV 50amp service.


Plug in, enjoy! : ) it's all relative...

Voltage is not Power
Power is Voltage times Current so current has everything to do with power.
You can't talk about current without talking about the supplied voltage. Almost all houses are supplied with 240 VAC in a split phase configuration so when you are talking about house supplied service it is at the 240 VAC supplied voltage.

RVs can either be supplied with 120 VAC service or 240 VAC service (exactly like your house) so when talking about 30 Amp RV service you should be knowledgeable enough to know it is at the supplied 120 VAC. When talking about 50 Amp RV service many people are not knowledgeable enough to know is is supplied at 240 VAC so some people try to "simplify" it by breaking it into the equivalent power of 2 times 120 VAC services at 50 amps to explain why the available power is so much more for 50 amp service. Some times this leads to even more confusion by the electrical novice who will argue until the cows come home that RV 50 amp service is a "special" service consisting of (2) 120 VAC services and not a standard 240 VAC 50 amp service.

[MLP]

Originally Posted by rynosback

Here is a question. From my understanding the Hughes Autoformer takes amps to raise the voltage. So if I’m plugged into a 50 amp service and the volts read 106volts. How is my Autoformer causing a fire hazard if I’m only drawing 40-45 amps? And the Autoformer is using 2-3 amps to boost the voltage. How is it putting a harmful demand on the campgrounds electrical system, if built correctly? Since I’m drawing less then my allotted 50 amps.

I will tell you how it will destroy every other rigs electronics. Been at a campground with too many camp sites on each leg. Power was just ok at 110V. Guy at the end hook up his autoformer, he turned the world on in his rig, and voltage dropped to 104V for everyone else on that power leg. I was protected to a point, but the surge protector did take a few seconds to turn the power off. It did this several times in four days and caused latent failures. Living room TV, converter, and microwave all failed within two weeks.

[rynosback]

Originally Posted by MLP

I will tell you how it will destroy every other rigs electronics. Been at a campground with too many camp sites on each leg. Power was just ok at 110V. Guy at the end hook up his autoformer, he turned the world on in his rig, and voltage dropped to 104V for everyone else on that power leg. I was protected to a point, but the surge protector did take a few seconds to turn the power off. It did this several times in four days and caused latent failures. Living room TV, converter, and microwave all failed within two weeks.

So sorry that you had so much damage. So it seems like the issue was that the campground under built there electrical system. As you stated that the campground had to many sites on one leg.
Well to me that just reinforces why I should have one. It does not answer my question. The Autoformer takes some amps to boost the voltage. But if I’m drawing under my 50 amps allotted to my site, I see nothing wrong with it. That just means that the campground or utility company has issues. And if I have a choice of letting my equipment last longer using one, then it makes sense to use one. If the campground would structure there grid so every site could draw the electricity allotted, then Hughes would never have gone into business. Not to mention today’s electronics are much more sensitive and need good clean proper power.
How do you know that this one camper caused all of that damage to your rig? I would think the campgrounds bad electricity caused it.

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by MLP

I will tell you how it will destroy every other rigs electronics. Been at a campground with too many camp sites on each leg. Power was just ok at 110V. Guy at the end hook up his autoformer, he turned the world on in his rig, and voltage dropped to 104V for everyone else on that power leg. I was protected to a point, but the surge protector did take a few seconds to turn the power off. It did this several times in four days and caused latent failures. Living room TV, converter, and microwave all failed within two weeks.

How is that an autoformer’s fault? The only thing the power grid “knows” is that the guy is drawing an amp or two more than her would without it. When he plugged in his big rig he used 30 or 40 amps so maybe now he’s using 32 or 42. Or maybe he just made a cup of coffee.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by MLP

I will tell you how it will destroy every other rigs electronics. Been at a campground with too many camp sites on each leg. Power was just ok at 110V. Guy at the end hook up his autoformer, he turned the world on in his rig, and voltage dropped to 104V for everyone else on that power leg. I was protected to a point, but the surge protector did take a few seconds to turn the power off. It did this several times in four days and caused latent failures. Living room TV, converter, and microwave all failed within two weeks.

And if another rig was added, the voltage would have dropped into the 90's. It called Voltage Drop. Wire sized too small for the load. His transformer had nothing to do with the problem. If if did it was only maybe 1 amp!!! It would have dropped with or without his transformer. If you had unplugged your RV the voltage would have gone up! and he would not have needed his transformer. The transformer saves electric motors like an A/C compressor. Normal electronics are not usually effected. Their tolerance for voltage swing is MUCH greater.

Please leave the explanations to the professionals.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by cavie

Please leave the explanations to the professionals.

You KNOW that's a losing battle!

[TurnerFam]

Originally Posted by rynosback

... So it seems like the issue was that the campground under built there electrical system. As you stated that the campground had to many sites on one leg.
I'm not sure how anyone would ever 'know' this... It's probably not even possible.

...The Autoformer takes some amps to boost the voltage. But if I’m drawing under my 50 amps[100 actual] allotted to my site[breaker], I see nothing wrong with it.
Yes, when voltage drops the device creates it's own 'voltage' increase, which requires amperage.

That just means that the campground or utility company has issues.
I would side with the fact that the Utility is responsible for the correct amount of voltage to any customer. They know the system, how it best operates, and what a customer needs and expects from their hookup to their main panel. The campground has no control over voltage.

And if I have a choice of letting my equipment last longer using one, then it makes sense to use one.
Agreed... do what helps you to best sleep at night. Some of others may not, but we all have that option.

If the campground would structure th[eir] grid so every site could draw the electricity allotted, then Hughes would never have gone into business.
Any business which hooks up to the Utility from the power company has to meet certain electrical minimums and expectations by the Utility before it even happens. As the business expands, and needs more 'power', the utility makes even more requirements. The utility is the source that provides the power, and it's within their jurisdiction to manage it, and their customers who use it.

How do you know that this one camper caused all of that damage to your rig? I would think the campgrounds bad electricity caused it.

I think it's fair to say that there is absolutely no way to 'blame' exactly someone else who is perceived to have 'caused' an electrical issue within a campground. A large motorcoach with 3 or 4 roof air conditioners and two 50amp shore power cords are certainly going to get everyone's attention, but they are STILL limited by the shore power Breaker. If they are 'using too much', whether with a device, or not, they are going to trip the main breaker at their site.


I think that most of us with substantial experience traveling and parking and plugging in and seeing a lot of these 'things', or potential problems, or even problems that have caused us headaches, are really just here to offer our suggestions. None of us can 'command' that everyone do it our way, or take a risk that we might not think of as being as much as others do, etc.
There is no solid 'perfect' answer, and certainly not to every conceivable situation, but it's all basic information that everyone can use to help manage their own needs when they run into electrical obstacles, or at least those perceived as such.

I understand that it may seem silly that some do certain things, as though they are hogging the electricity the rest are needing to use, but a large RV is simply doing with the RV is designed to do - and generally is under the same restrictions as everyone and anyone else with the same type and size of power systems.
We can all sometimes fall into the blame game, and maybe it certainly feels right at the moment, but generally everything gets worked out in the long run, and we probably realize later that it wasn't that big of a deal - at least it happens that way for me.

[Daley07]

I have used this Hughes Performance RV22050 Autoformer to prolong the life of my RV appliances. There are so many things that I like about this 30 amp autoformer: It can withstand rapid changes in moisture and heat inside the RV. It can manage up to 10% voltage boost, which is very good for our appliances inside the RV. Specially, it has LED indicator lights for convenient monitoring.

[TurnerFam]

Originally Posted by Daley07

I have used this Hughes Performance RV22050 Autoformer to "prolong the life of my RV appliances"...

you have drunk the coolaid, as there is no evidence or proof that an autotransformer can 'prolong' the life of anything - you have simply spent money to make yourself feel better. How in the world could anyone even 'prove' that anything has 'prolonged' the life of anything?

[Daley07]

Originally Posted by Daley07

I have used this Hughes Performance RV22050 Autoformer to prolong the life of my RV appliances. There are so many things that I like about this 30 amp autoformer: It can withstand rapid changes in moisture and heat inside the RV. It can manage up to 10% voltage boost, which is very good for our appliances inside the RV. Specially, it has LED indicator lights for convenient monitoring.

After weighing all the important details, I conclude that the Hughes Performance RV22050 Autoformer is one of the best RV autoformers in the market. It really protects appliances from being damaged due to low electricity surge.

[rynosback]

Originally Posted by Daley07

After weighing all the important details, I conclude that the Hughes Performance RV22050 Autoformer is one of the best RV autoformers in the market. It really protects appliances from being damaged due to low electricity surge.

Welcome to the club.

[Pete'sMH]

I use my autoformer whenever park voltage is low and it certainly keeps the voltage at a “normal” level. It’s also perfectly true that low voltage can damage certain types of appliances. Damage equals shorter life. Get an autoformer if you frequently encounter low voltage. And keep a digital voltmeter plugged into a handy outlet. We have one in our bathroom and it’s actually quite interesting to see how much the voltage varies throughout the day. It’s also a perfect night light.

[rynosback]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

I use my autoformer whenever park voltage is low and it certainly keeps the voltage at a “normal” level. It’s also perfectly true that low voltage can damage certain types of appliances. Damage equals shorter life. Get an autoformer if you frequently encounter low voltage. And keep a digital voltmeter plugged into a handy outlet. We have one in our bathroom and it’s actually quite interesting to see how much the voltage varies throughout the day. It’s also a perfect night light.

And you get a plug in meter with your Autoformer. A MUST for any full timer or someone that wants there stuff to last.

[abjbrtd]

Originally Posted by TurnerFam

if you are assuming that home 240v service is the same as RV 50amp 240v service, then you actually may be wrong, much of the time... not from a 'technical' definition, but from a PRACTICAL one. Here's why:

- electricians, and the electrical industry, refer to AMPS by the number on the end of each breaker, whether that breaker is a 120v type, or a 240v double-pole type. At the same time, though, we know that 120v and 240v power is not the same - one is twice as much as the other - yet the AMPS we refer to are considered the 'same'.

- RVs with 50amp service panels, though, rarely use 240v service. While the 240v service DOES come into the RV's main panel, just like at home, the two 120v power legs are not combined on any of the breakers - no double-pole breakers to service any needs*. In essence, ALL the internal circuit breakers are 120v only, meaning that two separate feeds of a maximum amps of 50 on each power legs provides a total USABLE amperage of up to 100. That's REAL LIFE for the RV owner, who can then use much more amperage than might at first seem possible, especially when compared to the typical 30amp RV service, which really is only 30amps max.

- *while it's true that a few larger RVs make use of a 240v breaker set within their main panel to provide for a 240v clothes dryer, or similar appliance, it's rare. When any of us owners refer to having use of 100amps, we are simply referring to the 'real world' use of all of our 120v circuits, which, in the end, is all that matters. Could you simply change the RV world to make use of a 100amp outlet instead? Sure, but then you'd need a mighty bigger cord set, which would be unwieldy and heavier than they already are. Then you would also have the issue for the larger units of not having that 240v option.
At my home, if I have a 100amp Main Panel, and I only had 120v circuits, I would also have a usable 200amps of power - though my 'electrician' friend might not agree. Neither of us are 'right' or 'wrong', but it's just a more clarified way to describe it to new 50amp rv owners, and those who think that RV 30amp service is only '20amps less' than RV 50amp service.


Plug in, enjoy! : ) it's all relative...

Thanks for the excellent "real world explanation
I worked in the "real world low voltage DC to high voltage AC.
Seen LOTS of smoke and a few flames, once at a regional FAA.....