RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×
 

Go Back   Thor Forums > Thor Tech Forums > Motorhome Tech Topics
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-26-2019, 02:30 PM   #21
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 9,239
THOR #1150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Denman View Post
You mention "Watts" verus "Watt-hours".
Can you explain how those two terms are referring to different things.
(Some of us have to check three times: before putting batteries in flashlights! )
Could they just be mistakenly contracting "Watt-hours", to "Watts"?

I don't know "watt" I am talking about...
Watts is a power rating; it is a rate of change (like speed).

Watt-hours is a capacity. Thus burning so many watts for such and such a time uses up X Watt-hours (like position which is speed * time).

Thus a battery can contain 5500 Watt-hours of charge and be discharged at a 5.5kW rate for an hour before its dead (neglecting usable capacity).

A good explainer (and says the same thing I just did above LOL):
https://enphase.com/en-us/support/wh...-and-watt-hour
__________________

__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2021 Mach-E
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-26-2019, 03:06 PM   #22
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 18,427
THOR #8860
Thanks for putting into simple terms for this simpleton!
__________________

__________________
"The World is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, and steal your dreams."
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2019, 08:34 PM   #23
Member
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Florida
Posts: 58
THOR #4064
Do these batteries last forever? I've been using my gen set and batteries for 10 years now. That works out to only a few dollars per year. Seems like sooner or later you got to use some good ol reliable fossil fuel to keep the lights on.
__________________
flrockytop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2019, 10:11 PM   #24
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,936
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by flrockytop View Post
Do these batteries last forever? I've been using my gen set and batteries for 10 years now. That works out to only a few dollars per year. Seems like sooner or later you got to use some good ol reliable fossil fuel to keep the lights on.
No, forever is too long a time.

My guess is that they wonít last anywhere close to their projected cycle life. Iím skeptical of most marketing claims.

However, if batteries are only discharged deeply a dozen times a year, they might last longer than the RV. A life of 500 to 1,000 cycles down to 20% (state of charge) would be enough for my needs if used to power air conditioner overnight. I donít expect to boondock 500 to 1,000 nights. I expect boondocking 10 times a year requiring A/C, so number of cycles should never be an issue for me. Iíd bet lots of RVers would use batteries in a similar manner.

No doubt a generator is cheaper than lithium batteries if having to power A/C for hours at a time. But many campers or travelers donít use the generator that often or for that long because they go from campground to campground.

In my opinion buyers who will pay the lithium premium wonít do it thinking of saving fossil fuels. I think itís more about the convenience, and lack of noise and exhaust fumes. Iím very interested in this technology, but not to save gas/fuel. Iím burning less than 1.3 gallons of gas a night, so not that costly or important. Getting rid of generator would be ďpricelessĒ (not literally).
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2019, 11:00 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Oneilkeys's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Travato
State: Florida
Posts: 2,439
THOR #1765
I agree. The real benefit to me would be the ability to run my A/C in a NP or NF or state park that did not have electric. I not only like to stay in these places because they are cheaper, but because they are generally much nicer overall than commercial campgrounds. I would much rather be in the woods than crowded close together with electric. Itís just what like and a non-generator lithium battery RV would fit my lifestyle. Iím seriously looking to downsize to a Sequence type Class B. I have loved my Vegas and Axis for the last six years, but I am about ready for something smaller again. I started out with a Pleasureway Class B, maybe I will end with another Class B. The ďbiggieĒ for me is the shower. In the final analysis, that was what got us from a Class B to a Class C. If the shower is as useable as the Axis (I donít have real high standards) I just might switch.
__________________
Oneilkeys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2019, 11:50 PM   #26
Thor Palazzo 33.3 diesel
 
TurnerFam's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Palazzo 33.3 34'bunkhouse
State: Georgia
Posts: 2,459
THOR #4735
I wondering then if the NP and such would then start to have 'air conditioner run times' restriction if folks could power them without even a generator - "oh, they're so loud!"

: /

yes, I like these no additions to the camping club, with the ability to be 'generatorless', but still have the capability of powering larger 120v appliances, at least for some number of hours - though I may see that having the unit 'automatically' start the engine of the vehicle in order to recharge the battery bank could have the NP creating new restrictions on not only 'air conditioner' run times, but 'engine' run times!

If my fellow camper neighbor's engine started up at 2am, right next to me, and ran for several hours non-stop, yep, I'd have a problem too.
__________________
the Turners
'14 Palazzo 33.3 bunkhouse 34' diesel
KingTailgater2 Dish HD, 100w/5a SOLAR, BlueOx
110,000+mi since '14 - US, Alaska, Canada (also, '14 Gulfstream Amerilite and '07 ForestRiver Rockwood) : )b
TurnerFam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 12:03 AM   #27
Senior Member
 
Oneilkeys's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Travato
State: Florida
Posts: 2,439
THOR #1765
Yes. I would think the NP restriction on generators also applies to running your engine, but probably not running an A/c intermittently on battery, although you might get a complaint from a nearby tent camper. You would need to pick your site carefully, but in my experience, RVs and tents are often in different areas. In a lot of instances, you really donít need to run your A/C all night, but the knowledge that you could do so might be enough to make the decision to camp there.
__________________
Oneilkeys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 12:11 AM   #28
Axis/Vegas Enthusiast
 
JamieGeek's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: Axis 24.1
State: Michigan
Posts: 9,239
THOR #1150
Keep in mind, however, that a class B has all of the OEM designed sound suppression in it. This would make the main engine very quiet compared to your average 5kW Onan in a coach.
__________________
2014 Thor Axis 24.1
2021 Mach-E
blog - https://spareelectrons.wordpress.com/
JamieGeek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 01:35 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Oneilkeys's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Travato
State: Florida
Posts: 2,439
THOR #1765
It would on the inside, but I am not so sure on the outside in a quiet campground. I never had a problem in the Axis running the A/C while running the generator with noise inside. But outside was a different matter.
__________________
Oneilkeys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 02:47 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,936
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamieGeek View Post
Keep in mind, however, that a class B has all of the OEM designed sound suppression in it. This would make the main engine very quiet compared to your average 5kW Onan in a coach.
I agree, although no idling restrictions will make it necessary (or at least preferable) to not run van or motorhome engine during the night.

Fortunately, at night a van can be cooled easily with 5,000 BTU/hr A/C, and Iíd bet with good insulation and quality windows it can be done with much less than that.

Basically, these battery banks with useable 600+ Amp-hour (13 VDC) should keep a van cool all night without needing the engine. Whatís missing are compact DC air conditioners that are much smaller than the 20,000 BTU/hr unit used by Coachmen, but with similar energy efficiency ratings of around 16~17. There are smaller rooftop A/Cs powered by 12 VDC, but the ones Iíve seen are too small for daytime cooling. Something in the 10,000 to 12,000 BTU/hr range with ability to operate at about 3,000 BTU/hr or lower is needed badly. With a good turndown ratio it will also make the A/C quieter at night.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 02:23 PM   #31
Senior Member
 
Oneilkeys's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Travato
State: Florida
Posts: 2,439
THOR #1765
The new Sequence has a 9,000 BTU A/c and I hope on a normal night it would be able to keep that small area cool without running the engine.
__________________
Oneilkeys is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 03:13 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,936
THOR #2121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneilkeys View Post
The new Sequence has a 9,000 BTU A/c and I hope on a normal night it would be able to keep that small area cool without running the engine.

Specifications show the Sequence comes standard with 11,000 BTU/hr Power Saver, 2,800 Watt Onan, 1,000-Watt inverter, and two AGM house batteries. I checked and La Mesa has a bunch of them with MSRP sticker confirming standard equipment. Itís all fairly standard for mass-produced van campers.

The only listed option I see is the ďPower Pack Electrical SystemĒ, which I think one video said would be available at a later time. Whether that system will have a 9,000 BTU/hr A/C I have no idea.


Realistically, the main reason to spend so much money on high-capacity lithium batteries and upgraded electrical is to run A/C off grid for extended periods. And while the 11,000 PowerSaver is efficient, manufacturers could do better with even higher efficiency A/Cs, particularly if running directly off batteries without inverter. Variable speed A/C is key to save energy at night and also make unit quieter.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 03:40 PM   #33
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,936
THOR #2121
As reference, this 20,000 BTU/hr 12 VDC air conditioner claims to only pull about 96 Amps at 95 F outside temperature. I have no idea of cost or how good it is.

Thatís about 1,150 Watts, which for 20,000 BTU/hr is an excellent EER of around 17. Compared to standard RV A/Cs plus inverter, a unit that efficient should be able to extend cooling time by about 50%. Thatís the kind of system integration these motorhomes need, except that 20,000 BTU/hr A/C is way too large for a well-insulated van (unless A/C can run slower which makes it more efficient still).
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	694C43B5-1653-4B0E-A484-8F2FECF5B408.jpg
Views:	68
Size:	99.4 KB
ID:	20653  
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 04:33 PM   #34
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 18,427
THOR #8860
A 20,000 BTU air conditioner on top of a Class B!?!

http://www.thorforums.com/forums/att...1&d=1570116785
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Jackcicle.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	246.5 KB
ID:	20656  
__________________
"The World is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, and steal your dreams."
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 04:53 PM   #35
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,936
THOR #2121
At other end of capacity/size range is a small A/C that is listed from 3,250 (max) to 2,240 (min) BTU/hr. Claimed 12 VDC power consumption is from 180 to 350 Watts, which means an EER of only 9 to 12. Even so, for overnight sleeping in a van that should make it comfortable. It probably wouldnít even need a large and expensive lithium battery bank ó may get by with a few large AGMs.

If my van wasnít so old, Iíd consider installing one of these for sleeping at night as an experiment; knowing it wouldnít do much cooling during the day. Would first need to look into cost and quality which I donít know about.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	09C5072B-5196-492F-A0C2-D10F228B9802.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	39.7 KB
ID:	20657  
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 05:46 PM   #36
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 18,427
THOR #8860
For sleeping at night: wouldn't just a simple fan be sufficient?
__________________
"The World is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, and steal your dreams."
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 06:01 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Brand: Still Looking
State: Texas
Posts: 4,936
THOR #2121
Not for me, and definitely not for my wife. When itís in the high 70s F and close to 100% Relative Humidity, a fan isnít enough for us to sleep comfortably. Weíve tried it numerous times. On the other hand, as soon as we start the generator and small A/C, and it starts to lower humidity in van, everything changes within 15 minutes or so. Higher temperatures seem easier to deal with than excessive humidity. Much depends on where you live.
__________________
Chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 06:36 PM   #38
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 18,427
THOR #8860
Got it!
You are correct: the humidity makes a ton of difference.

I live in an area of New York, where air conditioning is just not a necessity. We have a small window unit; but we never even bother to put it in anymore.
I guess it's too easy for me to forget that not all parts of the Country are the same...
__________________
"The World is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, and steal your dreams."
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 07:04 PM   #39
Senior Member
 
ducksface's Avatar
 
Brand: Thor Motor Coach
Model: 2018 24.1 AXISSIXxSIX
State: Arizona
Posts: 3,130
THOR #13932
A slightly different tack based on the generator vs battery vs a/c noise thing:
I'm semi actively thinking about considering to formulate a thought about, taking a look at,
The generator noise.
I have some handy chrome motorcycle mufflers that quiet my shop air compressor A LOT and have measured the 24.1 for a muffler add-on.
BUT
the majority of the generator noise is not cylinder firing or exhaust, it's the damn cooling fan.

What do we think of electric fans, like on most of your car radiators, to cool the generator?
A big advantage is the 12v fan could be timed to run a few minutes after the generator kicks off to prevent heat soak.

Muy decibels quieter these electric fans, all but unnoticeable with the correct baffling.

Baffling indeed... I'll start a
Let's disembowel our generator
Thread....
__________________
ducksface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2019, 07:38 PM   #40
I Think We're Lost!
 
Bob Denman's Avatar
 
Brand: Still Looking
Model: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
State: New York
Posts: 18,427
THOR #8860
Quote:
Originally Posted by ducksface View Post
Muy decibels quieter these electric fans, all but unnoticeable with the correct baffling.

Baffling indeed... I'll start a
Let's disembowel our generator
Thread....
And here it is: almost pumpkin carving season...

http://www.thorforums.com/forums/att...1&d=1570129246
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1477414657472.jpeg
Views:	69
Size:	35.9 KB
ID:	20659  
__________________

__________________
"The World is full of Kings and Queens; who blind your eyes, and steal your dreams."
Good Sam Member 843599689
Current coach: Tiffin Wayfarer 24 BW
Bob Denman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Thor Industries or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.




All times are GMT. The time now is 10:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
×