Winnebago All Electric Motorhome concept reveal

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Except that an Insight or a Prius cannot hold as many people or cargo as the large SUV so it is still a win because the EV SUV is more efficient than the ICE SUV it compares to.

Clearly not everyone is willing to drive an Insight (or an EV LOL)...

Do a comparison between Honda Insight and Tesla 3 and you’ll see what I’m referring to. I would agree Tesla is nicer or more luxurious, and more powerful, but both can get 5 people from point A to B. How badly do we want to reduce CO2?

Same applies to any similar-size EV versus latest hybrid technology. An EV needs equivalent MPG almost 3 times higher in order to put both in same fossil-fuel energy range.

Most important is that with limited battery capacity and limited grid power, we can convert a lot more vehicles from old conventional ICE to hybrid, and do it much faster and at much lower cost.

I’m perfectly OK with EVs and people wanting them, but prefer data used to market them is valid under realistic conditions. I actually want one although my wife not quite as much. What we agree on 100% is that an electric motorhome is unlikely to meet our needs for foreseeable future due to limited range. We will have to see what Winnebago has come up with.

[MLP]

I looked at EV cars earlier this year. Only the TESLA made sense, but not the cost of installing the charging station at home. I purchased a Honda CRV Hybrid. Love the car and gets 33mpg around the streets. It replaced my GMC diesel dully that was sitting in the driveway since I sold the fifth wheel. Our toad is our 2013 CRV.

I purchased a Honda Insight for my son when he graduated college. It has been a great car, but with my back I cannot sit in it very long. I can in the CRV because you sit higher in it. My back eliminates all sports cars as well.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by MLP

I looked at EV cars earlier this year. Only the TESLA made sense, but not the cost of installing the charging station at home. I purchased a Honda CRV Hybrid. Love the car and gets 33mpg around the streets. It replaced my GMC diesel dully that was sitting in the driveway since I sold the fifth wheel. Our toad is our 2013 CRV.

I purchased a Honda Insight for my son when he graduated college. It has been a great car, but with my back I cannot sit in it very long. I can in the CRV because you sit higher in it. My back eliminates all sports cars as well.

When researching the cost to install the Level-2 did you look into the tax rebates available? It only cost me $100 to install our Level-2 years ago...

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

Do a comparison between Honda Insight and Tesla 3 and you’ll see what I’m referring to. I would agree Tesla is nicer or more luxurious, and more powerful, but both can get 5 people from point A to B. How badly do we want to reduce CO2?

Same applies to any similar-size EV versus latest hybrid technology. An EV needs equivalent MPG almost 3 times higher in order to put both in same fossil-fuel energy range.

Most important is that with limited battery capacity and limited grid power, we can convert a lot more vehicles from old conventional ICE to hybrid, and do it much faster and at much lower cost.

I’m perfectly OK with EVs and people wanting them, but prefer data used to market them is valid under realistic conditions. I actually want one although my wife not quite as much. What we agree on 100% is that an electric motorhome is unlikely to meet our needs for foreseeable future due to limited range. We will have to see what Winnebago has come up with.

Well that is happening too..quite a few hybrids coming out as well.

A notable one discussed elsewhere when it was announced the Ford Maverick.

[Bob Denman]

Jamie is 135% correct.
This is just the first step: certainly not the last!

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Well that is happening too..quite a few hybrids coming out as well.

A notable one discussed elsewhere when it was announced the Ford Maverick.

Yeah, that was me. The Maverick is rated 42 MPG City, not quite as high highway due to aerodynamic drag. At least it proves the latest hybrid technology can recover energy (regeneration) while using a very small battery.

For years I heard that electric cars cut CO2 in half, but researching this in more detail last week revealed that estimates are often based on comparing Tesla 3, one of the most efficient EV, to unspecified “conventional” internal combustion engine.

As long as marginal/incremental electrical power for EVs comes from fossil fuels (a valid assumption in my opinion), the overall thermal efficiency starting at power plant is around 33%. A lot of comparisons use conventional ICE efficiency around 16%, but don’t define what type of vehicle that is.

However, the latest hybrids with Atkinson engines and electric CVT (continuously variable transmission) can also get into the 30% range. At steady higher highway speeds the advantages of pure electric is hard to find.

For motorhomes that travel more highway than city stop-and-go, an Atkinson ICE hybrid is pretty good and easy to implement, not to mention affordable. That’s where I would like to see OEM focus for now.

When grid is nearly 100% renewable, EVs will certainly make more sense regardless of their size. For now though, needlessly driving around in 8,000-pound electric pickups and SUVs just because they are electric will be counterproductive compared to other options. And that’s why educating the buying public is so important that just because it’s an EV we don’t get a free pass.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

Yeah, that was me. The Maverick is rated 42 MPG City, not quite as high highway due to aerodynamic drag. At least it proves the latest hybrid technology can recover energy (regeneration) while using a very small battery.

For years I heard that electric cars cut CO2 in half, but researching this in more detail last week revealed that estimates are often based on comparing Tesla 3, one of the most efficient EV, to unspecified “conventional” internal combustion engine.

As long as marginal/incremental electrical power for EVs comes from fossil fuels (a valid assumption in my opinion), the overall thermal efficiency starting at power plant is around 33%. A lot of comparisons use conventional ICE efficiency around 16%, but don’t define what type of vehicle that is.

However, the latest hybrids with Atkinson engines and electric CVT (continuously variable transmission) can also get into the 30% range. At steady higher highway speeds the advantages of pure electric is hard to find.

For motorhomes that travel more highway than city stop-and-go, an Atkinson ICE hybrid is pretty good and easy to implement, not to mention affordable. That’s where I would like to see OEM focus for now.

When grid is nearly 100% renewable, EVs will certainly make more sense regardless of their size. For now though, needlessly driving around in 8,000-pound electric pickups and SUVs just because they are electric will be counterproductive compared to other options. And that’s why educating the buying public is so important that just because it’s an EV we don’t get a free pass.

Don't ignore the fact that the grid is changing as well. So someone could buy an EV today and that EV will emit less CO2 over time as the grid it uses to charge improves. Sure many locations don't have much renewables today but in a few years the percentage changes to improve that. (Not to mention the very few who install solar on their roofs to charge up their BEV's--yeah ok very very few LOL.)

Looking at where my power comes from in 2020: 50% Coal, 20% Nuclear, 18% Natural Gas, and 12% Renewables.

My provider has posted a roadmap to get to net zero by 2050 and thus over time my car will get "greener". (Of course all of this assumes that one of the reasons someone buys an EV is to be "green" which may, or may not, be the case.)

[Sappy2]

Just a matter of time until we will see Ford EV chassis under motorhomes. Ford is pushing real hard on EV right now. The issue will be range and where to charge that big of a battery, and for how long.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

....cut.....

Looking at where my power comes from in 2020: 50% Coal, 20% Nuclear, 18% Natural Gas, and 12% Renewables.

.....cut.....

The sad reality of the problem is that all non-coal electricity is already allocated for other needs whether people drive EVs or not. Existing businesses, homes, schools, grocery stores, fire stations, city lights, etc. already use up all the nuclear, solar, wind, etc.

If I purchased a Tesla 3 in your area, its energy would likely come mostly from coal, and if not because coal is base-loaded, then from natural gas.

Coal would make Tesla 3 much worse than Insight or Prius, and if natural gas perhaps about the same. Double the EV mass and it’s a no win. And that’s the way we seem to be headed.

I’m in agreement with need to replace coal with renewables as fast as practical, because stationary electrical needs (connected directly to grid) will benefit tremendously. However, mobile applications are not as beneficial unless in heavy stop-and-go and of limited range (due to lighter weight).

I just finished watching the Houston Marathon and it was a great reminder that physics is hard to overcome. There was not one heavy winner — period. If we want to reduce CO2, the easiest path is to reduce size.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

The sad reality of the problem is that all non-coal electricity is already allocated for other needs whether people drive EVs or not. Existing businesses, homes, schools, grocery stores, fire stations, city lights, etc. already use up all the nuclear, solar, wind, etc.

If I purchased a Tesla 3 in your area, its energy would likely come mostly from coal, and if not because coal is base-loaded, then from natural gas.

Coal would make Tesla 3 much worse than Insight or Prius, and if natural gas perhaps about the same. Double the EV mass and it’s a no win. And that’s the way we seem to be headed.

I’m in agreement with need to replace coal with renewables as fast as practical, because stationary electrical needs (connected directly to grid) will benefit tremendously. However, mobile applications are not as beneficial unless in heavy stop-and-go and of limited range (due to lighter weight).

I just finished watching the Houston Marathon and it was a great reminder that physics is hard to overcome. There was not one heavy winner — period. If we want to reduce CO2, the easiest path is to reduce size.

My provider has a program where you pay more and get "green energy"--not sure I buy that: Its electricity, not trains, it all gets dumped to the grid.

Its not like they can shunt the electricity from a local wind farm or solar farm directly to my house.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

My provider has a program where you pay more and get "green energy"--not sure I buy that: Its electricity, not trains, it all gets dumped to the grid.

Its not like they can shunt the electricity from a local wind farm or solar farm directly to my house.

Exactly.

A feel-good accounting/economic system won’t control where CO2 molecules end up.

I do love electric cars for their simplicity, and wish safe, budget-minded ultra-efficient commuter EVs optimized for local trips were more popular. Too many have become bloated in my opinion.

In any case, I’m looking forward to see what Winnebago has been working on. Motorhome size should reveal what future trends they anticipate. Also of interest is whether they try to make it more aerodynamic or stick to a box shape.

I personally hope it’s Class B or tiny A in size, though expect Class C is more likely (perhaps based on e-Transit?). We will know either way in a few days.

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

Jamie is 135% correct.
This is just the first step: certainly not the last!

Wake me up when it materializes in a form with function and some practicality not some religious based hope and prayer and sssttttrrrrettttcchhh as it is now and will be.
The conjecture and wishing is mind boggling.

It's coal and derivatives.
It will be coal and derivatives.

[lwmcguire]

Originally Posted by atreis

What goes up must come down.







What was the average speed for the trip, how long was the trip, and what was the terrain traveled like?



Why that matters:

If the trip was very short and the truck started out with a hot interior, it wouldn't be surprising that most of the energy went to initial cooling.



If the trip was longer, but the average speed was low, then the amount of energy needed for moving the vehicle wouldn't have been very high relative to climate control.



If the trip was longer and at a reasonable highway speed, but significantly downhill, then the amount of energy needed for moving the vehicle wouldn't have been very high relative to climate control.







Gas cars can (and do) run out of gas, especially in an unexpected traffic jam such as that one. Running out of fuel is a red herring. However, recharging an EV that's run out of juice in a remote location is a lot more difficult. (Simpler to just tow it to a charger.)

Usually much cheaper to bring a Diesel generator to get enough charge to drive to a charging station

[lwmcguire]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

During that same Texas Hard Freeze when we had no power and when they finally got power we had the rolling black outs, we used our portable 3500 generator connected to our home's transfer switch and did fine, except we do not have the pool equipment on the circuit to be supplied by Transfer Switch.



Now that I know it is possible, I would like to have 30 amp male generator receptacle off my Onan 5500. That way if this happens again I can use my RV generator to supply our house Our Transfer Switch can handle 7500 watts, but when I installed it; I wired it thinking I would never go over 3500, I may re-balance and rewire for 5000 watts to include my pool equipment and maybe my downstairs AC unit?

Hot male plug? No

[lwmcguire]

It takes a huge ammount of coal and diesel to build and construct wind turbines

Wind farms are high maintenance and about 35% available

Solar farms cover large areas and are at best 50% available

Where is all this additional power going to come from for a few million EV's?

How do we offset to maintain the grid when it is dark or no wind?

Green energy will easily double the electric cost if not more

Subsidized EV'S are paid from borrowing and ultimately taxpayers

Such as the BBB stalled plan of creating Trillions for Social programs that includes building infrastructure for EV'S

Won't we need more available power to the grid?

[Chance]

Nuclear is only source of energy I am aware of that can provide enough steady electrical power 24 hours a day and not make significant CO2 in the process.

Renewables with storage is another option, but adds a lot of cost, and full environmental impact of recycling batteries is not well know yet as far as I know. It also makes us collectively more vulnerable in my opinion.

While in school a long time ago I recall engineering departments working together on electric cars and buses, with primary goal of eliminating dependence on foreign oil. At the same time nuclear power plants were being built which could have provided all necessary energy. It would have been a good match, but by time electric cars were viable at all, nuclear plants had fallen from grace.

It is unlikely, but electric cars could face similar questions as nuclear in a decade or two. That concerns me more than anything else — unintended consequences that come with new technologies.



P.S. — A few articles agree the Winnebago picture appears to be that of a Ford Transit. Picture does not reveal whether Class B or C, or if Ford OEM electric Transit versus aftermarket conversion with greater range and payload.

[JamieGeek]

Well that won't fly ! LOL
125 mile range, 86kWh battery...

Transit chassis so that is why limited range; probably just the basic electric Transit under it.

LOL that was it all of 15 minutes...

Yeah very not ready for prime time.

I do like that they tapped into the high-voltage-battery to power the appliances (A/C, range, etc.) so instead of 12V stuff its 350V stuff.

Other than that, however, yup just a one off project "yup look what we're working on but you can't buy it".

[ducksface]

It's 'hey look at me!'
Mixed with
'This is the progress we're making with the $120,000,000 of subsidy the government gave us for this ludicrously simple-minded rv project. The incredibly large amount of subsidy was given to us to get this far into the lie of green being affordable.'

The story/adv/fluff fulfills a contractual obligation releasing another stage of funding.
THIS is how it works.

If they can't plop three tesla batteries and a ford crate motor drive train under ANY van ever made and have it running in three weeks...they're spending subsidies because They have subsidies.

My Lord.
Any engineer on this forum with access to my shop and three temp agency laborers could have one on the road doing 125 range, in mere weeks...maybe days.
It wouldn't be pretty, but it sure as hell wouldn't be a cgi photoshopped piece of fluff.


Monster garage would have had one built Damn quick.
The garbage bondo'd dumpster builders from SEMA could Pretty it in another week.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Well that won't fly ! LOL
125 mile range, 86kWh battery...

Transit chassis so that is why limited range; probably just the basic electric Transit under it.

LOL that was it all of 15 minutes...

Yeah very not ready for prime time.

I do like that they tapped into the high-voltage-battery to power the appliances (A/C, range, etc.) so instead of 12V stuff its 350V stuff.

Other than that, however, yup just a one off project "yup look what we're working on but you can't buy it".

It does not appear to be based on E-Transit, which Ford specs indicate only comes with SRW and the new independent rear suspension. Also, since Winnebago had been working on this for 2 years, it preceded the E-Transit. It is likely based on an aftermarket conversion.

Their emphasis on high voltage appliances being so much more efficient is ridiculous in my opinion. The difference is not worth mentioning. It is one way to lose credibility.

I was expecting the air conditioner to be the same as the OEM for driving, so seeing a roof-top unit of any voltage was disappointing.

The floor plan is interesting for a Winnebago van camper, but I didn’t get a great look. Seems a little inefficient use of space given how large the extended Transit is at over 22 feet. Still, looks like decent kitchen, bath, and front living area that doubles as bed.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

It does not appear to be based on E-Transit, which Ford specs indicate only comes with SRW and the new independent rear suspension. Also, since Winnebago had been working on this for 2 years, it preceded the E-Transit. It is likely based on an aftermarket conversion.

Their emphasis on high voltage appliances being so much more efficient is ridiculous in my opinion. The difference is not worth mentioning. It is one way to lose credibility.

I was expecting the air conditioner to be the same as the OEM for driving, so seeing a roof-top unit of any voltage was disappointing.

The floor plan is interesting for a Winnebago van camper, but I didn’t get a great look. Seems a little inefficient use of space given how large the extended Transit is at over 22 feet. Still, looks like decent kitchen, bath, and front living area that doubles as bed.

True it probably was prior to e-Transit but then I'd have to say "2 years and that is the best you could come up with?" Still find it a bit disappointing, to be honest.