Winterize

[Bill Johnson]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

I agree here, and why I said in earlier post, not sure how far North I would have to move to be that concerned; and with the FACT that you state AFTER you blow out the water. Failure to improperly drain all water can be disastrous for both methods, as my money says a number of RVers simply add the Pink antifreeze to what water may already be in the lines or water that has not properly drained. Diluted antifreeze will freeze sooner, not that you don't know that; but just stating why I say both methods can fail if improperly performed.

I agree and most people don't know that the pink stuff freezes at temperatures sometimes in the 20s but doesn't expand. I was reading reviews from people that the pink stuff freezes solid in the garage and they would never buy that brand again

[Scubawise]

These are great responses..my wife read a few and just said to me she does not want to spend this winter in montana..so we will hit the road this winter..she used to live in New Mexico and wants to explore Las Cruses new Mexico for a permanent move

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

The operating manual also specifically says to NOT put the pink stuff in the Hot Water Heater, and it is an OPTION to backfill the water supply lines GIVEN that you have properly WINTERIZED by draining and air blowing @30psi first. It does not distinct any method, preference, or option based on actual location or expected temperatures.

Now I am thoroughly confused.

I get the part about not putting pink stuff in the water heater. That is why my coach came with a set of bypass valves to go around the water heater.

But, why would I need to blow air through the lines BEFORE putting antifreeze to the water pipes? My coach also came with a valve to shut off the FW tank and connect a bottle of pink stuff to the supply side of the water pump. That pump is designed to pump liquids, not gases.

Can somebody tell me what's wrong with this procedure?

1. Open the FW tank drain. Let all the water pour onto the pavement.
2. Dump the black and grey holding tanks. Close exit valves when done.
3. Close valve to water heater, open water heater bypass valve.
4. Close valve from FW tank
5. Place a gallon of pink stuff on the dinette table. Connect a hose from the bottle to the winterizing port near the water pump.
6. Open all the hot and cold water faucets, one at a time, including the shower, until each one turns solid pink.
7. Flush the toilet several times.
8. Turn off the water pump.
9. Open all faucets and shower heads.
10. Drain the hot water heater. Leave the plug inserted loosely.

It seems to me that I've satisfied all the important requirements. The pump, strainer, and most of the piping is filled with pink stuff. The faucet valves and FW tank drain stay open all winter, just in case something freezes. And, there is plenty of pink stuff in the traps and holding tanks.

I don't own an air compressor, except the one I use to fill tires, and I don't want to buy one. Why would I ever need one?

What am I missing?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

Now I am thoroughly confused.

I get the part about not putting pink stuff in the water heater. That is why my coach came with a set of bypass valves to go around the water heater.

But, why would I need to blow air through the lines BEFORE putting antifreeze to the water pipes? My coach also came with a valve to shut off the FW tank and connect a bottle of pink stuff to the supply side of the water pump. That pump is designed to pump liquids, not gases.

Can somebody tell me what's wrong with this procedure?

1. Open the FW tank drain. Let all the water pour onto the pavement.
2. Dump the black and grey holding tanks. Close exit valves when done.
3. Close valve to water heater, open water heater bypass valve.
4. Close valve from FW tank
5. Place a gallon of pink stuff on the dinette table. Connect a hose from the bottle to the winterizing port near the water pump.
6. Open all the hot and cold water faucets, one at a time, including the shower, until each one turns solid pink.
7. Flush the toilet several times.
8. Turn off the water pump.
9. Open all faucets and shower heads.
10. Drain the hot water heater. Leave the plug inserted loosely.

It seems to me that I've satisfied all the important requirements. The pump, strainer, and most of the piping is filled with pink stuff. The faucet valves and FW tank drain stay open all winter, just in case something freezes. And, there is plenty of pink stuff in the traps and holding tanks.

I don't own an air compressor, except the one I use to fill tires, and I don't want to buy one. Why would I ever need one?

What am I missing?

Nothing if your manual says that. Does it?

If I chose the Option to apply Pink Anti Freeze, it walks me through step by step on how to do it, fairly tricky to remember in sequence (but simple steps) I think it covers 2 or 3 pages. You could also choose an Option to apply Pink Anti Freeze in a manner / sequence that you prefer.

It might be noteworthy to lay out what your manual is saying as pose the questions if any; about the delta?

In my case I am following my manual 100%; Maybe I don't have to, but if something go wrong; I got the book behind me.

I had a compressor before my RV and occasionally carry it with me. Thus far I have always been winterized before my trip where freezing temps were expected.

One detail I like when going back through my manual is that in my case, I never have to use any of the bypass valves unless I intend to back fill with pink stuff

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

... in my case, I never have to use any of the bypass valves unless I intend to back fill with pink stuff

I don't understand the meaning of "back fill" in this context. To me, that suggests injecting something into the water system from the "back" end.

In my procedure, all I'm doing is replacing water with pink stuff. Out with the clear, in with the pink. It follows the exact same path through the pump and pipes, except that it comes from a bottle instead of a tank.

Unless somebody shows me where I'm making a big mistake, I am going to continue doing it my way.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

I don't understand the meaning of "back fill" in this context. To me, that suggests injecting something into the water system from the "back" end.

Backfill meaning sucking the the pink stuff into the fresh water supply via the pump

In my procedure, all I'm doing is replacing water with pink stuff. Out with the clear, in with the pink. It follows the exact same path through the pump and pipes, except that it comes from a bottle instead of a tank.

Unless somebody shows me where I'm making a big mistake, I am going to continue doing it my way.

That is certainly your right, and I don't think anyone was telling you to do different? Certainly not I. I think you may have got confused (your words) because you read where it is not consistent with my owners manual. You should do what your manual says, or whatever you want is my point.

In my discussion with Scuba, I pointed out what I do and why (my Owners Manual); and he was telling me what he does and why (his experienced RV Techs) The only difference I saw in the two was that my manual says the Pink Stuff is OPTIONAL in the fresh water supply line and it comes after you have completed all of the steps in the Air method of draining water (Winterizing). I think a flag raised in your mind that my documentation (owners manual) says to drain and blow out lines before adding the pink stuff. You never said what your owners manual says.

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

You never said what your owners manual says.

Owner's Manual? You got an Owner's Manual?

I bought my 2017 used. My documentation is a just a basket full of PDF files, some that I downloaded from Thor, some that I downloaded from Ford, and some that I downloaded directly from each appliance manufacturer.

The doc that applies to this stuff is titled "Water System Guide - Class A and Class C Motorhomes". Everything you might want to know about this document is stated here: "This guide is not intended for use as a service manual, nor is it model specific. Although some information is specific to certain brands and models, it is of a general nature, and the illustrations and descriptions provided may differ from the components installed in your motorhome." But, in this case, I suppose that is a good thing. It means that these instructions apply to pretty much any Thor product ever built.

The procedure is long, so I won't paste it here.
The condensed version:

1. Level the coach and drain the fresh water system.
2. Turn off the water heater and close the gas valve.
3. Bypass the water heater.
4. Close the low point drains.
5. Attach a hose to the City Water Fill and insert the other end into a gallon of RV antifreeze.
6. Turn on the water pump.
7. Open the faucets until RV antifreeze flows.

I don't think much of these instructions. They totally ignore the Antifreeze connection at the water pump. I'm pretty sure they won't even work for my system. How do they expect Antifreeze to be drawn in on the output side of the pump. Ridiculous.

You will notice that they don't mention a peep about pumping air into the system.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

Owner's Manual? You got an Owner's Manual?

Yes, my coach came with a Serialized Owners Manual specific to my coach and date code it was manufactured. I actually have two because the 1st one while it was for my coach's serial number it had wrong build. They sent me 2nd one for free. I was lucky to get a coach that was built based on the upcoming year, thus the changes. They also come with a large Serialized binder that comes with all of the documents, manuals, and warranties for all of the equipment that comes with the coach.

I bought my 2017 used. My documentation is a just a basket full of PDF files, some that I downloaded from Thor, some that I downloaded from Ford, and some that I downloaded directly from each appliance manufacturer.

The doc that applies to this stuff is titled "Water System Guide - Class A and Class C Motorhomes". Everything you might want to know about this document is stated here: "This guide is not intended for use as a service manual, nor is it model specific. Although some information is specific to certain brands and models, it is of a general nature, and the illustrations and descriptions provided may differ from the components installed in your motorhome." But, in this case, I suppose that is a good thing. It means that these instructions apply to pretty much any Thor product ever built.

The procedure is long, so I won't paste it here.
The condensed version:

1. Level the coach and drain the fresh water system.
2. Turn off the water heater and close the gas valve.
3. Bypass the water heater.
4. Close the low point drains.
5. Attach a hose to the City Water Fill and insert the other end into a gallon of RV antifreeze.
6. Turn on the water pump.
7. Open the faucets until RV antifreeze flows.

I don't think much of these instructions. They totally ignore the Antifreeze connection at the water pump. I'm pretty sure they won't even work for my system. How do they expect Antifreeze to be drawn in on the output side of the pump. Ridiculous.

You will notice that they don't mention a peep about pumping air into the system.

I see your point. I think they have the basic mechanics of sequence correctly but may be an old outdated document. When / if you ever blow the water out of your lines, you will know why it must / should be done.

They do confirm heater is bypassed 1st; so no pink stuff goes there.

I assume that if you leave your City Fill valve in Normal mode the pump will pull from the 1 gallon tank? But that is out of my pay grade as I don't even pump from the built in syphon hose let alone the City Fill input.

If I get a chance, I may snap a few pictures so you can see what my coach is recommending to do, but it is not to say; or does not mean you are doing anything wrong. It can only explain what I do, and the why I do it is because it is what my book says. Oddly due to my ignorance on the subject; I follow the book 100% if that makes sense to you.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

Owner's Manual? You got an Owner's Manual?

Here is where my manual gives you the two options. It says use one of the two methods.

Note: Option 1 is actually called Blow Out Procedure. Compressed air is REQUIRED.

Note #2: I don't have to do anything with any bypass valves, just drain and blow it out.

You do have to remove the water filter and drain the water heater. Last step is to add the Pink Stuff in the P Trap

[dkoldman]

The below is just to show that the Anti- Freeze Fill procedure is considered an ALTERNATIVE method. That means not Primary, it is listed as Option #2 for reason.

It is also to show that the Blow Out Procedure is a prerequisite task to what this manual considers as a proper anti freeze fill procedure. It additionally confirms that the water heater plumbing must be bypassed as to avoid the pink stuff.

If you think about it, if the air procedure is good enough for expensive water heater system, what is the deal or concern with air in the pex pipe? The way I see it; Not putting the Pink Stuff in the water supply is Less Work, Less Filling and water Taste Great

[Wiley1]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Here is where my manual gives you the two options. It says use one of the two methods.
Note: Option 1 is actually called Blow Out Procedure. Compressed air is REQUIRED.
Note #2: I don't have to do anything with any bypass valves, just drain and blow it out.
You do have to remove the water filter and drain the water heater. Last step is to add the Pink Stuff in the P Trap

When you say "Compressed air is required", I'm guessing that is only for Method #1, right? No air needed for Method #2?

So, we are both right.

If you decided to implement Method #2, I think you would need to use your bypass valves. Otherwise, pink stuff would get into your water heater.

In Virginia, I'm sure either method will work just fine. Heck, one warm year I didn't do anything except open the faucets and run a tiny thermostat controlled space heater. I owned this rig three years before I even knew it was equipped with "low point" drain valves.

But, in the Yukon, they probably use both methods with the super low temp pink stuff.

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

When you say "Compressed air is required", I'm guessing that is only for Method #1, right? No. No air needed for Method #2? Air is needed for Method 2. You did not read the owners manual instructions, 2nd picture; on the Procedure to use Antifreeze it tells you specifically to complete the blow out procedure after you have drained the fresh water filter canister

So, we are both right. Not in this context; but I don't see that as factor. I am only sharing what my manual says; in this case; I actually sent you pictures of what it says. Whatever you choose to do will ALWAYS be right because you own your Coach.

If you decided to implement Method #2, I think you would need to use your bypass valves. Otherwise, pink stuff would get into your water heater. Yes, since I will never use Method #2; I will never have to touch the Bypass valves was my point, less complexity and less margin of errors was other angle. Also, GIVEN the FACT that only Air is in Hot Water System, what is the issue with ONLY Air in the other Pex hoses?

In Virginia, I'm sure either method will work just fine. Heck, one warm year I didn't do anything except open the faucets and run a tiny thermostat controlled space heater. I owned this rig three years before I even knew it was equipped with "low point" drain valves.

Per my manual; regardless of where you live, both methods are effective if done properly. It did not provide the Alternative (AntiFreeze) procedure based on region etc. Note; if system is NOT blown out, per the manual the Antifreeze method is NOT done properly.

But, in the Yukon, they probably use both methods with the super low temp pink stuff.

The manual didn't say any stipulation about where you mighty be. You may be missing that if done properly Method 1 is a PREREQUISITE for Method 2

[Pete'sMH]

I usually drain the lines before I use the antifreeze but I don’t blow them out. The amount of dilution is minimal and the last antifreeze I bought was good down to -50. Not worried about it. Super easy, it takes about 15 minutes and I’ve even done it at an interstate rest stop while we are traveling home from a warm place to a cold place. It’s not the PEX lines that you should be worried about so much as it is valves, diverter and pumps where water might get trapped in a small place made of hard plastic.

[Scubawise]

Originally Posted by Wiley1

When you say "Compressed air is required", I'm guessing that is only for Method #1, right? No air needed for Method #2?

So, we are both right.

If you decided to implement Method #2, I think you would need to use your bypass valves. Otherwise, pink stuff would get into your water heater.

In Virginia, I'm sure either method will work just fine. Heck, one warm year I didn't do anything except open the faucets and run a tiny thermostat controlled space heater. I owned this rig three years before I even knew it was equipped with "low point" drain valves.

But, in the Yukon, they probably use both methods with the super low temp pink stuff.

MONTANA is the Yukon

Like reading all the comments

[yukongrant]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

MONTANA is the Yukon

You're far away geographically. But the temperatures are close. Don't know the stats for Montana - but North Dakota is only, on average, a half degree colder than we are.

Most people here do both - blow the lines and run the pink stuff through the lines. It costs very little and takes a few minutes.

But there are people here that do one or the other and are fine. I've heard of people who thought they had the lines blown out - and then ran into trouble. But most are fine.

The key is to make sure you do one or the other properly. I've messed up enough things over the years that I no longer trust my ability to do almost anything properly. So I do both. (If there was a third option, I would probably do that too. Can never be too safe!)

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Scubawise

MONTANA is the Yukon

Thanks, I never knew that. I always like to learn something that I never knew. I have heard the word Yukon forever but never knew where it was.

So is Yellowstone National Park in the Yukon. or is it different part of Montana?

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

I usually drain the lines before I use the antifreeze but I don’t blow them out. The amount of dilution is minimal and the last antifreeze I bought was good down to -50. Not worried about it. Super easy, it takes about 15 minutes and I’ve even done it at an interstate rest stop while we are traveling home from a warm place to a cold place. It’s not the PEX lines that you should be worried about so much as it is valves, diverter and pumps where water might get trapped in a small place made of hard plastic.

I wouldn't say I was worried about the PEX lines. Rather I was pointing out that if you add AntiFreeze as intended, you will bypass the hot water heater system, it will thus be only exposed to Air. So point I was making if your hot water system can survive the freezing temp with only Air, why would it be a concern on ANY Pex, valves, diverter and pumps of the the other also drained and filled with air.

Remember, I am not advocating or telling ANYONE to not use AntiFreeze in fresh water lines. Just saying what I do and used my owners manual to validate to take my opinion out of the equation. My manual says both methods are okay, but it says to blow the lines in both methods (see pictures). I don't expect everyone to agree with what my Mfg says, but would think it would explain why if I am asked, I would say blow the lines first before backfilling with the pink stuff. This is a public RV forum whereas you may know that and opt to not blow it out anyway, whereas the next guy may not have known that it is documented to blowout lines before backfilling with Antifreeze? If he decides to not blow out lines; so be it, it is his / her choice. I just shared the information.

I think I fell into this rathole because I was simply saying I never put the pinkstuff in my freshwater supply; only the P traps. Per my owners manual that is all I need to do no matter where I am. It was -2 degrees in Dallas 6 months ago. All I had was air in the supply lines and pink stuff in the P traps and didn't have any issues with the RV; but it cost me $6,000 of repairs for damaged at the house. Maybe I should have filled the garage plumbing, pool, and pool heater with RV antifreeze

[dkoldman]

Originally Posted by yukongrant

Most people here do both - blow the lines and run the pink stuff through the lines. It costs very little and takes a few minutes.

But there are people here that do one or the other and are fine. I've heard of people who thought they had the lines blown out - and then ran into trouble. But most are fine.

The key is to make sure you do one or the other properly. I've messed up enough things over the years that I no longer trust my ability to do almost anything properly. So I do both. (If there was a third option, I would probably do that too. Can never be too safe!)

You are following the manual for both procedures all 7 pages of it

Now that we got that out of the way.... is the Yukon in Montana or North Dakota

[yukongrant]

Originally Posted by dkoldman

Now that we got that out of the way.... is the Yukon in Montana or North Dakota

Not sure if this is a joke - but Yukon is in Canada - just to the east of Alaska. (That's why I say we're a long way geographically.) The coldest month here is January with an AVERAGE temp of -15° C (5° F). The average January temp for North Dakota is 4°F. (So not much difference - but COLD.)
I looked up Montana - the average January temp for Montana is about the same as North Dakota.

[Chateau_Nomad]

My city water connection is on the opposite side of the coach where the water pump is. If I blow compressed air into the city water connection, will that clear ALL the lines? Stupid question... cycle the pump while doing this, or will the air "blow through" the pump... clearing it and all downstream lines/faucets? I'm thinking about trying both blow/pink this coming winter.