The electric Transit is coming...

[axis earl]

You all are kidding yourselves with today's technology as far as a full sized RV. Just look at trucking today. That should be a clue.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by axis earl

You all are kidding yourselves with today's technology as far as a full sized RV. Just look at trucking today. That should be a clue.

LOL We're aware of that but you have to start somewhere. A company can't just sit around and wait for technology to catch up they have to make it otherwise competitors will leave them in the dust.

Hence Tesla trying with the Semi. Ford's electric Transit will likely be more for local delivery or the HVAC or plumber guy simply driving around in a local area than for any long haul application but you know some RV company will take one and make a prototype out of it.

At this point a hybrid powertrain makes a lot more sense (I keep harping on it but it just makes perfect sense to me: the 2021 F-150's hybrid powertrain with 7.2kW generator output is perfect for an RV). They could even put a bigger battery in an RV chassis than the one they put in the F-150.

[Chance]

Fiat is introducing the Electric Ducato with up to 360 km (224 mile) range when equipped with larger 79 kWh battery configuration. That’s a low-roof van on a primarily slow-speed urban test cycle. Range on highway could be significantly different depending on driving speed and conditions.

Like Jamie states, it’s a start.

https://www.fiatprofessional.com/e-d...ctivity-safety

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

....cut.....

At this point a hybrid powertrain makes a lot more sense (I keep harping on it but it just makes perfect sense to me: the 2021 F-150's hybrid powertrain with 7.2kW generator output is perfect for an RV). They could even put a bigger battery in an RV chassis than the one they put in the F-150.

The F-150 hybrid powertrain should be easy to adapt to Transit van since it’s same engine and transmission. A much larger battery will likely make it a plug-in hybrid, but that’s even better for camper conversion in my opinion.

[Bob Denman]

I just came across this new player. Their promises sound... promising!

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/2...ange-517-miles

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Bob Denman

I just came across this new player. Their promises sound... promising!

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/2...ange-517-miles

Yeah they have been around a while. That was the big news today the 500+ mile range. Its a car, however.

There are quite a few startups in the EV space now in various forms (cars, trucks, planes!, etc.).

[Bob Denman]

The more: the merrier!
It'll breed competition...

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Yeah they have been around a while. That was the big news today the 500+ mile range. Its a car, however.

There are quite a few startups in the EV space now in various forms (cars, trucks, planes!, etc.).

Is there much talk about the Tesla Roadster with projected 620 mile (1,000 km) range? Regardless of range, it’s a beautiful sports car with incredible performance.

Early reports suggested Tesla was stuffing 200 kWh of battery in the small and aerodynamic roadster, but I don’t see Tesla specs backing that up. I’m not sure why it would be needed considering the 400-mile range of the larger Model S.

[Bob Denman]

Can they wring any more performance out of the existing battery technology?
Or do we need a new direction?

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

Is there much talk about the Tesla Roadster with projected 620 mile (1,000 km) range? Regardless of range, it’s a beautiful sports car with incredible performance.

Early reports suggested Tesla was stuffing 200 kWh of battery in the small and aerodynamic roadster, but I don’t see Tesla specs backing that up. I’m not sure why it would be needed considering the 400-mile range of the larger Model S.

I haven't heard much about the new roadster. My guess is that they announced it so far ahead that nobody really cared much (especially when accounting for Tesla's frequent timeline slips).

[petefoss]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

In theory but to date no electric vehicle uses in wheel motors. They all use the traditional axle/differential/motor as a single unit.

So AWD would be two motors, not four.

Except for the Rivian vehicles.

There are some very serious technical hurdles with wheel motors. The biggest being "unsprung weight". Very heavy wheels including tires, rims, brakes and a wheel motor put huge forces on the suspension. Especially pot hole loads where the suspension sees loads 3 to 5 times the static loads.

Back at GM R&D and Powertrain we talked about it a lot and the consensus was IF we did 4 motors they would be mounted on the vehicle frame with drive shafts out to the wheel to decrease the unsprung weight. Wheel motors is one of those concepts that works great on paper or in a concept show car but falls flat when you try to actually engineer a robust solution.

[Bob Denman]

Whatever uit takes...
That would also place the weight more toward the center of the vehicle.
"Mass centralization"...

[Chance]

Originally Posted by petefoss

There are some very serious technical hurdles with wheel motors. The biggest being "unsprung weight". Very heavy wheels including tires, rims, brakes and a wheel motor put huge forces on the suspension. Especially pot hole loads where the suspension sees loads 3 to 5 times the static loads.

Back at GM R&D and Powertrain we talked about it a lot and the consensus was IF we did 4 motors they would be mounted on the vehicle frame with drive shafts out to the wheel to decrease the unsprung weight. Wheel motors is one of those concepts that works great on paper or in a concept show car but falls flat when you try to actually engineer a robust solution.

Yes, and it’s not only the weight (unsprung mass) of the electric motor at each wheel, but the newest electric cars use small and light-weight motors that spin at very high RPM, so if mounted directly at wheel, it would also involve the added weight/mass of the speed-reducing transmission, or else it would require a much heavier low-speed motor.

I’ve seen pictures of the upcoming electric F-150 showing an independent rear suspension that looks very similar to that of the Ford Expedition’s. My guess is that an electric Transit will likely also include an IRS for both RWD and AWD models, assuming they are not all built as AWD. I certainly hope Ford doesn’t keep the Transit’s live rear axle.

[JamieGeek]

Ford did test in wheel motors in a Fiesta:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfs5z0Lg1Xc

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Ford did test in wheel motors in a Fiesta:

In-wheel or hub motors seem to work best for now in smaller sizes (and weight) associated with lower power ratings. Much like small electric bike motors, it’s not surprising Ford would test on a Fiesta. I’d guess all four motors combined probably don’t put out as much power as some Tesla motors, or what Ford will use on F-150 or Transit.

I’m sure there’re other challenges also like shock loads on motors, electric connections that must flex with suspension travel, etc. I know manufacturers have to start somewhere, and for compact economy cars might make sense soon. However, as long as manufacturers continue to build electric cars that can do 0-60 MPH under 4 seconds, it’s going to somewhat limit these types of motors in my opinion.

Funny thing is who would have expected electric cars like Tesla roadster to have 0-60 MPH under 2 seconds and quarter mile under 10 seconds? If they designed a car with performance equivalent to a Honda Civic, these types of motors may work sooner. Just a guess on my part.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by Chance

In-wheel or hub motors seem to work best for now in smaller sizes (and weight) associated with lower power ratings. Much like small electric bike motors, it’s not surprising Ford would test on a Fiesta. I’d guess all four motors combined probably don’t put out as much power as some Tesla motors, or what Ford will use on F-150 or Transit.

I’m sure there’re other challenges also like shock loads on motors, electric connections that must flex with suspension travel, etc. I know manufacturers have to start somewhere, and for compact economy cars might make sense soon. However, as long as manufacturers continue to build electric cars that can do 0-60 MPH under 4 seconds, it’s going to somewhat limit these types of motors in my opinion.

Funny thing is who would have expected electric cars like Tesla roadster to have 0-60 MPH under 2 seconds and quarter mile under 10 seconds? If they designed a car with performance equivalent to a Honda Civic, these types of motors may work sooner. Just a guess on my part.

That Fiesta was a one off prototype, 7 years ago and they only put motors in the rear wheels (I think it was a technology demonstrator for the company that made the motors).

Electric cars really didn't take off until someone demonstrated something that could do 0-60 fast (up until that point people simply considered them glorified golf carts). EVs had to be better than a gas powered car before people would take them seriously.

[Bob Denman]

The technology is there: now it comes down to the timing...

[Chance]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

That Fiesta was a one off prototype, 7 years ago and they only put motors in the rear wheels (I think it was a technology demonstrator for the company that made the motors).

Electric cars really didn't take off until someone demonstrated something that could do 0-60 fast (up until that point people simply considered them glorified golf carts). EVs had to be better than a gas powered car before people would take them seriously.

Seven years is a long time in fast-developing EV technology, and if we haven’t seen numerous applications already, it’s likely it didn’t work out quite as expected or promoted. I can still see the benefit for small urban EVs though.

A little research shows the base eSprinter in Europe is FWD, much like the upcoming Fiat Ducato, but I expect that is more important there to keep weight down. Battery capacity for the electric Sprinter is very limited as is the payload. Greater battery capacity reduces payload even more.

In US the Chanje electric heavy-duty van relies on RWD and is designed for up to 6,000 pounds of cargo. This is many times greater than the eSprinter, which partly explains the need for RWD (improved traction when fully loaded), live axle, and truck-like leaf spring rear suspension. Note in picture below that they add two drive motors on the rear axle, which obviously increases unsprung mass. Ride harshness is probably not that important in a cargo van.

It’s difficult to imagine Ford would do something this crude with Transit electric van.

[Chance]

Jamie, unless Ford limits electric Transit to FWD, it’s possible they’ll add an independent rear suspension like seen on this spy photo of electric F-150.

I’d personally love to see Ford use this same design on gas-powered vans also. A beefed-up version on a SRW E-350 would make a very nice small motorhome with decent ride quality.

With Expedition and Suburban now having IRS, suspension load capacity and added costs must be getting closer to being viable for RVs.

[Bob Denman]

Perhaps Ford developed it in order to patent it, and keep everyone else out of the pool...