Driving does not charge house battery

[dlt]

Hello,

It is 2022 Chateau 22e. Driving did charge the house battery. But somehow it stopped to do so. Both shore power and generator can charge house battery without problem.

We found it out after two nights dry camping. Each day, we drove about 4 to 8 hours. But the battery did not charge up. At the time we found out, it seems has damaged the house battery. Now the house battery can be charged by shot power pretty soon, but it will lose the charge also very quick.

The user manual says this model uses BIM. Thanks to this form, after I read through many posts. I found out there is a "Trombetta 684-1251-012" close to chassis battery, no other BIM as it indicated in the user manual.

I think pretty much, the broken Trombetta caused the issue.

I found out the chassis battery (positive), one wire from ignition (I guess) and one terminal of Trombetta connected together.

The house battery, the wire from emergency start and another Trombetta terminal connected together.

After I start the engine, I measured 14.5v on the Trombetta terminal with chassis battery. But 12.5v on the Trombetta terminal with emergency start.

So I think the Trombetta is broken.

When I press emergency start, I measured 14.5v on the Trombetta terminal with emergency start.

My question is why the chassis battery (positive) and the ignition connected together? What is this for?

Anyway, I have ordered the Trombetta.

Thanks.

[TarRiver Charlie]

I had the same problem and after many phone calls finally found some help from the manufacturer of the lithium power controller/inverter, Mastervolt. I got one of their "get help" guys who turned out to be super. I had to purchase a cheap pc laptop (we use Macs) and was able to plug in my pc to the pigtail and let him take over and run the diagnostics via wi-fi. Even he became bumfuzzled when things just didn't add up so he called in the guy who actually builds them. Long story short it was one of the plugs which was plugged into the LCD panel which had come unplugged. Plugged it back in and it started charging like a champ. A simple loose wire/bad connection caused me many nights of frustration and anger. (My unit was brand spanking new and the dealer was too far away to take it to and no one else in my area, including the Thor dealers, knew how to fix it.)

Trace your wiring best you can and take the panels off to inspect the plugs is the only advice I can give. If it ain't that, call Mastervolt.

[Dan-sr@perra-us.net]

Years ago, I had a similar problem on my Allegro. It turned out that the Battery isolator, The devise that prevents the chassis battery being discharged along with the house batteries when not plugged into shore power, was not allowing the Chassis alternator charging the house Batteries. After the Isolator was replaced, the problem was corrected. Also consider the age of the batteries. anything older than 3 years might need replacing if they have been discharged too deeply too often.

[dlt]

I think the "Trombetta 684-1251-012" is the isolator. I think it is only a little over a year. Seems this is a common issue.

Will update after I get it replace.

Originally Posted by Dan-sr@perra-us.net

Years ago, I had a similar problem on my Allegro. It turned out that the Battery isolator, The devise that prevents the chassis battery being discharged along with the house batteries when not plugged into shore power, was not allowing the Chassis alternator charging the house Batteries. After the Isolator was replaced, the problem was corrected. Also consider the age of the batteries. anything older than 3 years might need replacing if they have been discharged too deeply too often.

[dlt]

Originally Posted by Judge

A Trombetta Relay is typically a "latching" relay and it is used to temporarily connect the house batteries to the chassis battery for emergency starting (chassis battery is run down) when you press the Emergency Start switch.

A BIRD (Battery Isolation Relay Delay) is required to allow the alternator to charge the house batteries. If you don't have a BIRD (and many Class C's don't), then your coach is operating normally.

A BIM (Battery Isolation Manager) combines the Trombetta Solenoid and BIRD into a single device.

And the User Manuals are very generic and not model specific so you can't go by the manual "saying" you have a BIM.

If you say and measured the house batteries being charged by the alternator, then you need to look for the BIRD. That would be what failed if the alternator is no longer charging the house batteries.

I could not find detail schema in user manual or other materials I could find in the owner section of their website.

But the Trombetta Relay is the only thing I found between house and chassis battery. No BIM or BIRD or anything else I can find in this model.

[simidrm]

I have replaced mine twice in the last 1 1/2 yrs and last one was replaced with the controller at lazy days Rv in Elkhart and it acts up and works sometime, bad design altogether,.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by dlt

I could not find detail schema in user manual or other materials I could find in the owner section of their website.

But the Trombetta Relay is the only thing I found between house and chassis battery. No BIM or BIRD or anything else I can find in this model.

Then if your alternator was charging the battery, your Trombetta solenoid may be energized full-time when the ignition is turned on.

Typically a BIRD is used with the Trombetta Solenoid to allow for smart battery charging vs full-time charging by the alternator. Here is an example of with the BIRD - Trombetta combination sometimes looks like. If you can't find a BIRD, then perhaps you only have a Trombetta that energized so the batteries are tied together as soon as the ignition turns on.

[dlt]

Checked that again, there is a IRD (ISOLATOR RELAY DELAY) connected to Trombetta solenoid. In the red circle, that is Trombett. IRD is above it.

In my case, this IRD is working like BIRD? So does this IRD could also fail?
How do I check if IRD is good or not?

Attached are the pictures I took.


Thanks.

Originally Posted by Judge

Then if your alternator was charging the battery, your Trombetta solenoid may be energized full-time when the ignition is turned on.

Typically a BIRD is used with the Trombetta Solenoid to allow for smart battery charging vs full-time charging by the alternator. Here is an example of with the BIRD - Trombetta combination sometimes looks like. If you can't find a BIRD, then perhaps you only have a Trombetta that energized so the batteries are tied together as soon as the ignition turns on.

[16ACE27]

IRD is one direction charging, from the alternator to the house batteries. The linked PDF may help your troubleshooting.
https://intellitec.com/wp-content/up...-00629-120.pdf

[dlt]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

IRD is one direction charging, from the alternator to the house batteries. The linked PDF may help your troubleshooting.
https://intellitec.com/wp-content/up...-00629-120.pdf

This is very useful. Thank you very much.

[dlt]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

IRD is one direction charging, from the alternator to the house batteries. The linked PDF may help your troubleshooting.
https://intellitec.com/wp-content/up...-00629-120.pdf

OK, the blue wire of IRD does not have voltage. So it is the wire issue. :-(

[Pillbox]

Ok, the blue wire gets power from the switched ignition source. Ignition on power to blue wire. Off, no power. An IRD is a one way device. Engine running, coach battery and house batteries charge. Shore power, ONLY the house batteries charge.
Do yourself a favor, get a BIM and get rid of the IRD and trombetta. That way all batteries get charged from shore or engine or generator.
I can tell you how to hook up if needed.
Terry

[dlt]

Originally Posted by Pillbox

Ok, the blue wire gets power from the switched ignition source. Ignition on power to blue wire. Off, no power. An IRD is a one way device. Engine running, coach battery and house batteries charge. Shore power, ONLY the house batteries charge.
Do yourself a favor, get a BIM and get rid of the IRD and trombetta. That way all batteries get charged from shore or engine or generator.
I can tell you how to hook up if needed.
Terry

@Terry, Thank you, please share the hook up wiring.

I am thinking to replace the house battery to LiFePO4 battery. Do I need to change the BIM or IRD system?

It is 2021 chevy chassis. I am tracing the blue wire to the power source, (It changed to yellow) I think the wire should go through the engine compartment to driver (wheel/key ignition). I still have trouble to locate it inside driver cabin. :-(

Any hint?

Langtian

[dlt]

Found this, is this the reason Thor replaces the BIM/BIR with a Trombetta solenoid in 2022 model?

https://oemdtc.com/5599/rc000206-bim...tum-motorhomes

[Judge]

Originally Posted by dlt

@Terry, Thank you, please share the hook up wiring.

I am thinking to replace the house battery to LiFePO4 battery. Do I need to change the BIM or IRD system?

It is 2021 chevy chassis. I am tracing the blue wire to the power source, (It changed to yellow) I think the wire should go through the engine compartment to driver (wheel/key ignition). I still have trouble to locate it inside driver cabin. :-(

Any hint?

Langtian

Pillbox is right... you would be better off ripping out that stuff and installing a BIM and having bi-directional smart charging.

If you plan to go LiFePO4..... don't bother spending money on fixing this problem if you can wait.

I have a '20 Magnitude SV34 and I did a LiFePO4 conversion last year. It had a BIM 160 and I switched to the LI-BIM 225 because you need to handle charging differently when having LiFePO4 house batteries and lead acid chassis batteries.

You will also need to look at chaning your Converter / Charger... unless you have an Inverter / Charger, which should be configurable for lithium battery charging.

You either need the LI-BIM 225 or you need to install a DC-to-DC charger if you are going lithium.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by dlt

Found this, is this the reason Thor replaces the BIM/BIR with a Trombetta solenoid in 2022 model?

https://oemdtc.com/5599/rc000206-bim...tum-motorhomes

Probably not surprising. A BIM 160 retails for $150 - $200. Trombetta solenoids go for well under $50.

Thor loves to save a buck where they can... even when it is a bad idea in the end.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Judge

Probably not surprising. A BIM 160 retails for $150 - $200. Trombetta solenoids go for well under $50.

Thor loves to save a buck where they can... even when it is a bad idea in the end.

Well except it is not a direct Trombetta for BIM replacement. The BIM is replaced by an IRD/Trombetta combo which eliminates chassis battery charging capability from the converter. The IRD adds at least another $50 to the mix, cheaper than a BIRD or BIM certainly. A BIRD/Trombetta combo is in the same price range as a BIM160.

[lwmcguir]

A 200-amp Trombetta, continuous duty, with silver contacts will typically go in the 100-dollar range.

There are cheaper ones out there and they last accordingly

My current unit, as above, is going on 6 years and when parked yesterday all batterie banks were charged with 13.6 volts reading prior to shut down

[dlt]

Originally Posted by 16ACE27

Well except it is not a direct Trombetta for BIM replacement. The BIM is replaced by an IRD/Trombetta combo which eliminates chassis battery charging capability from the converter. The IRD adds at least another $50 to the mix, cheaper than a BIRD or BIM certainly. A BIRD/Trombetta combo is in the same price range as a BIM160.

Base on my existing IRD+ Trombetta, can I add another IRD to allow charge chassis battery from house side? ( when shore power is on)

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by dlt

Base on my existing IRD+ Trombetta, can I add another IRD to allow charge chassis battery from house side? ( when shore power is on)

Just replace the IRD with a BIRD.