Ev toad ??

[Dan-sr@perra-us.net]

Originally Posted by Bill Johnson

Our electric rate is 12.8. And electric vehicle doesn't need the maintenance that a gas vehicle does, oil changes, fuel, engine parts, transmission, radiator, other fluids, differentials, steering and probably more so it's not just the difference of fuel and the cost of electric. Batteries in both, very few have transmissions, so many things to take in account

Some of those things will also wear out on an EV as well. EVs have a gearbox I do not think the electric motors are directly connected to the wheels certainly if there is only one electric motor then there has to be some sort of differential. The same goes for the steering gear and wheel bearings. Yes those things habr been made more maintenance free and more durable on EV as well a ICE vehicles, but they do still go bad and when they do the result can be very expensive to fix if only because the failing part is part of an assembly that is not designed to be serviced. when something minor fails the entire assembly need to be replaced. How many ICE vehicles have had the ECM go bad and need to be replaced? That replacement can cost $500.00 or more at a dealer. An EV has much more complex electronic sustems, the more complex the unit is the more expensive it will be to replace those electronics in the event of a failure.

[Chateau_Nomad]

One of the first warning lights that popped up during our first month of owning the Bolt... "Service transmission soon". That was a hoot! It doesn't even HAVE a transmission!

Turns out it was a software brain fart that was fixed with a 5 minute update at the dealership.

I gotta say... freeway entrance ramps are almost as fun as my truck with the Ecoboost.

[bry899]

EV car over ICE solution for us was rooftop solar.
Now we don't care what the utility is charging per KWH or what the price of fuel is per gallon, except, of course for the Motorhome

[Greybear]

Originally Posted by BuzzDoc

EVs can’t be charged from your generator or the CS 50amp. Needs far higher amp service. Home have to install large amperage special chargers.

And finally. EVs can only be towed on a trailer. No dolly or flat towing.

The Jeep Wrangler 4XE can be flat towed, just like any other Wrangler.

This may not be what you're looking for, as it's a hybrid, but if it is, you can tow it, get to your destination, run it around on the engine and charge it over night.

They can charge using a 40 or 50 amp circuit.

The big downside? EV range is only about 22 miles of the total 370 mile range.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Greybear

The Jeep Wrangler 4XE can be flat towed, just like any other Wrangler.

This may not be what you're looking for, as it's a hybrid, but if it is, you can tow it, get to your destination, run it around on the engine and charge it over night.

They can charge using a 40 or 50 amp circuit.

The big downside? EV range is only about 22 miles of the total 370 mile range.

As you said; it's not an EV, which is the topic of this discussion. There are several hybrids that can be flat towed.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Our home kWh rate is a dirt cheap .073... 1/3 of yours. ....cut....

Your rate is indeed dirt cheap at less than 1/2 the national average. Using average would make an efficient Tesla 3 cost about $0.04 per mile. That’s based on $0.16 per kWh and 4 miles per kWh.


https://www.bls.gov/regions/midwest/...reas_table.htm


Applying average gas price to a hybrid the size of a Prius, Corolla, or Civic makes fuel cost about $0.07 per mile. That’s +/- $3.50 per gallon at 50 MPG. The new Prius in Houston would be under $0.05 per mile at present costs.

Right now we are talking about $0.03 per mile average difference between ICE ($0.07) and BEV ($0.04) for economy-size vehicles. Using the common 12,000 miles per year, average energy cost savings would be about $360 per year. In 10 years and 120,000 miles of driving, energy cost difference adds up to ~ $3,600. That’s not much savings if it has to offset/cover higher initial BEV cost, house charger, or higher electricity cost purchased on the road.

I also expect that as more vehicles switch to electricity, supply and demand will lead to higher electrical rate and possibly lower gasoline rate.

Lastly, we don’t know well yet how BEVs will depreciate as the batteries get old and are beyond the warranty period. In example I used above, how will a 10-year-old BEV with 120,000 miles hold its value compared to a hybrid? I don’t know either, but expect the $3,600 difference in energy cost over 10 years will play a small part in total ownership costs.

[DavidEM]

Interesting analysis Chance. Our electricity rates here in Connecticut are currently 24 cents per kWh and set to go up to 35 cents (no typo) in January. Neither EVs or PHEV make much sense economically at that rate even if tax credits offset the purchase cost premium.

So I am looking at only non plug in hybrids for our next car. For those the cost of electricity is irrelevant and the city mpg improvement pays for the extra costs.

David

[Pete'sMH]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Our home kWh rate is a dirt cheap .073... 1/3 of yours. But gasoline is still a tad over $3. Our electric rate has stayed pretty consistent for a couple years, while we all saw what petrol has done. While no future guarantees, our history of affordable electric without volatile price swings made the decision for an EV easy for us.

In the first six months I've documented savings of $157 per month vs 30mpg gasoline... based on driving an average of 63 miles per day in the EV. That's based on .073kWh and $3.00 gasoline... today's prices. To me, that savings represents nearly a full tank of gasoline for the RV each month!

But how much more did the EV cost relative to a similar gas vehicle? Our second car at home only goes about 4,000 miles a year of almost entirely in town driving. Good candidate for an EV you’d think. But I bought a new Spark for $17,000 since I couldn’t find an EV for under $30,000. You can buy a lot of gasoline for $24,000! ($1,000 for additional sales tax). At 4,000 miles per year my Spark will only burn 100 gallons a year. And my 6 month insurance premium on the 22 Spark with State Farm is under $200.

[EA37TS]

Read an article not too long ago about someone looking for sympathy and handouts because they had the battery on a used EV go bad 6 months after they bought the car. The manufacturer wants 6k more for the battery than they paid for the used car. The car was 4 or 5 years old if I’m not mistaken. Manufacturer told them to get stuffed and refused to discount an out of warranty battery.

If my memory is correct the battery cost was about 14k plus installation

[atreis]

Originally Posted by Dan-sr@perra-us.net

Some of those things will also wear out on an EV as well.

EVs do have gearing, but most don't have a differential and the gears are a single sealed unit along with the motor. The motor on most is mounted in line with the wheels being driven by the motor, so all they have to do is step-down gearing on either end of the motor shaft to the axle. These parts don't require servicing and should outlive the car.

To your point though, they do have some fluids that need changed, but it's a lot less frequent. The cooling fluid used to keep the batteries cool needs to be changed periodically (varies by car, but on the order of every 100K miles). Brakes still need serviced, but a lot less often because of regenerative braking. I'd guess the power steering system is largely the same as in an ICE car. Generally though, there are a lot fewer moving parts.

The most common repairs, as you mention, are for electronics failures. Many have very long warranties on those parts though so it's more of an inconvenience. As with anything else computerized and complex, the biggest issues tend to be software-related.

[atreis]

Originally Posted by EA37TS

Read an article not too long ago about someone looking for sympathy and handouts because they had the battery on a used EV go bad 6 months after they bought the car. The manufacturer wants 6k more for the battery than they paid for the used car. The car was 4 or 5 years old if I’m not mistaken. Manufacturer told them to get stuffed and refused to discount an out of warranty battery.

If my memory is correct the battery cost was about 14k plus installation

By law, all EVs are required to have a minimum 8 year warranty on the battery pack. Some states (like CA) require 10 years. This could have been different in the past, so perhaps this was an old story?

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by atreis

By law, all EVs are required to have a minimum 8 year warranty on the battery pack. Some states (like CA) require 10 years. This could have been different in the past, so perhaps this was an old story?

Could be it was beyond the 100k mileage limit of the federal law.

The 8 year warranty expired in August. The used car was a 2014, battery cost 14k and the battery for that car is no longer manufactured.

[Chance]

Originally Posted by atreis

EVs do have gearing, but most don't have a differential and the gears are a single sealed unit along with the motor. The motor on most is mounted in line with the wheels being driven by the motor, so all they have to do is step-down gearing on either end of the motor shaft to the axle. These parts don't require servicing and should outlive the car.

.....cut.....

Not sure I agree completely. Most do have a single step-down fixed-ratio transmission per driven axle, but most also have a differential between wheels on same axle unless they have a dedicated motor per wheel (example are some Rivian that use two motors on one axle).

Attaching reduction gearing on each end of a motor with a rigid shaft would not provide differential movement of wheels on same axle as far as I know. Not unless they installed a clutch or ratchet of some sort and that seems unlikely.

In any case, a differential is essentially repair free on most ICE vehicles also.

[Chance]

A good bird’s eye view of an electric truck chassis shows how the single motor is coupled at only one end to a reduction gearbox and then powers a differential between rear wheels. This arrangement is very typical in most BEVs as far as I know.
.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Pete'sMH

But how much more did the EV cost relative to a similar gas vehicle? Our second car at home only goes about 4,000 miles a year of almost entirely in town driving. Good candidate for an EV you’d think. But I bought a new Spark for $17,000 since I couldn’t find an EV for under $30,000. You can buy a lot of gasoline for $24,000! ($1,000 for additional sales tax). At 4,000 miles per year my Spark will only burn 100 gallons a year. And my 6 month insurance premium on the 22 Spark with State Farm is under $200.

We were looking to replace our 2018 Toyota RAV4 with a new car. The 2022 Bolt EUV and equivalent 2022 RAV4 to our 2018 model were nearly identical in price. The rebate and included home charge receptacle made the Bolt very attractive. So, the purchase price was a wash... actually favored the Bolt.

However... the RAV4 is larger... a true SUV, while the Bolt is a subcompact hatchback. Also, the RAV4 is AWD... not available (yet) on the Bolt. We were willing to sacrifice those shortcomings for the difference in operating expenses... especially the fuel savings... which I explained in an earlier post.

Purchase price = wash
RAV4 annual fuel = $2,325
Bolt annual fuel= $447

Call it what you will... but I consider a nearly $2,000 annual fuel cost savings "not insignificant".

[Chance]

The Tesla Semi powertrain uses 3 motors, 1 motor on one axle and 2 motors on other axle. Both have dual reduction gearing, but only one axle needs differential. Not a big deal — just showing for information/reference.

I wonder how long motors running close to 10,000 RPM will last in semi applications expected to last a million miles.
.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Chance

A good bird’s eye view of an electric truck chassis shows how the single motor is coupled at only one end to a reduction gearbox and then powers a differential between rear wheels. This arrangement is very typical in most BEVs as far as I know.
.

There's videos galore showing the Chevy Bolt and other EV drivetrains. Chevy definitely cut some "tech corners" with the Bolt... the underpinnings are relatively crude compared to other comparably sized ICE cars. But the build quality (fit & finish) actually surpasses Tesla. Probably because Chevrolet has more "experience".

EVs are uncharted territory for legacy carmakers - I remember when front wheel drive was the next hot thing. I look for EVs to fill a void - just like AWD has a market... or pickup trucks.

[atreis]

Originally Posted by Chance

Not sure I agree completely. Most do have a single step-down fixed-ratio transmission per driven axle, but most also have a differential between wheels on same axle unless they have a dedicated motor per wheel (example are some Rivian that use two motors on one axle).

Attaching reduction gearing on each end of a motor with a rigid shaft would not provide differential movement of wheels on same axle as far as I know. Not unless they installed a clutch or ratchet of some sort and that seems unlikely.

In any case, a differential is essentially repair free on most ICE vehicles also.

It was actually the Rivian that I had looked at. Heh. Anyway, I stand corrected. Thanks. (I'm still waiting for my Nissan Ariya, which apparently should come very soon - as in, they're in the US or on ships.)

[herzog301@comcast.net]

Dan-sr in Iowa!
If you live in northern Iowa, consider this. We live in Chicago-land and owned a hybrid plug-in Chvey Volt for 3 years, followed by a full EV Chevy Bolt for 3 years, then returned to a gas Chevy Trailblazer in Non '21. Why? During winter the battery system gets cold causing the full charge on the Volt and the Bolt to often reduce in half. The Bolt would often drop to a full charge of less than 100 miles. That 100 miles would be used up even more quickly because the battery system is your only power source for heat, defrost, lights, radio, etc. We feel that EVs in northern climates may work as a second car for some people, if parked outside to avoid garage fires. So we tried the EV thing. Didn't work for us. Maybe in a few years.

[hatwate]

Originally Posted by HMCSW

Many of the RV parks in the Northwest where we live and travel actually state NO EV charging aloud.

As does our campground in St Petersburg FL