Lithium Upgrade

[Judge]

So the two Big Battery 170Ah batts showed up yesterday. The third one I ordered last Friday hasn't shipped yet so I am hoping it gets out by tomorrow so I can get it installed before I leave on the 20th.

After getting the batts yesterday, I called an audible on the installation layout that I originally planned.

I was going to pull the four 6V flooded batts out of the battery compartment and install the three 170Ah's. I measured everything and there was room for three..... except I missed one measurement. The batteries are just over 7" wide. The opening in my step is 7 1/2" wide. Once I would get two batteries in there, I don't think I can fit the third one because the Big Batts are 13" high. There just wouldn't be enough room to maneuver since I only have about 1/4" of clearance in the step opening when lowring them down.

I was a little bummed and thought about cancelling the third battery but the problem-solver in me kicked in and I had a much better idea!

Under one of the dinette seats, I installed a Dirt Devil Central RV Back last year. I knew I had some room under that seat and it was right above the Inverter and right next to the battery compartment. There was a large metal bracket for the seat belts (which we don't use) so I removed that and it created enough room fit the three batteries with no problem. There is already a large hole in the floor with spray foam for some existing wiring that will make running the cables a breeze with no additional hole cutting needed.

I then placed an order this morning with Battery Cables USA https://www.batterycablesusa.com/ for some custom cables to do a better job than Thor did wiring everything. These guys are great. Talked to them on the phone this morning and they already shipped out my order today (~$200 in custom cables). I should have the cables on Thursday.

I made wiring improvements in the battery compartment last year when I added two more 6V batts but my approach now will be even cleaner.

I ordered three two foot 1/0 AWG cables with the SB175 Anderson Connectors that the Big Battery units use. Big Batt ships a four foot 4 AWG cable for each battery so the 1/0 will be closer to spec and much shorter.

I am going to install two 4-post 3/8" Bus Bars under the dinette seat as well to tie the three batteries together in parallel. I also ordered two 4' cables with regular lugs for the Inverter that I will run up to the Bus Bars. I'll be installing the 500A Victron Bluetooth Shunt there as well to monitor battery performance.

I also ordered two more 5' cables to run back down from the dinette seat to the battery compartment to connect into the Bus Bar I added last year for the rest of the coach 12V power (Levelers, Generator, BIM, Converter, etc.).

I'll take some pictures as I get going on the install. I am getting ready to pull out the four flood 6V batts while I wait for the cables since it takes some wrangling to get them out.

I am disappointed in Battle Born. I orded the LI-BIM 225 from them on July 30. It took a week for them to ship it out when they had it in stock. Now FedEx Home Delivery seems to be moving slow... probably because of the fires out west. It is supposed to be here Thursday but I have my doubts since it is still in Utah and I am in PA. It is going to end up taking at least two weeks to get after placing an order. Another place I called said I would have it in two days so not sure why Battle Born took so long.

The real plus with my new installation approach is that it will be a breeze to remove the batteries for winter storage. Just three quick-disonnect cables and then out through the door they go versus struggling to get them in and out through the step. I am also ditching my battery disconnect switch since each Big Batt unit has its own power button.

I'm also decided to remove the metal seat belt bracket from under the other dinette seat for more storage there as well.

[Gmthrust]

Hey Judge. I also removed the batts from the compartment. I then bought some pvc board (1/2") and enclosed the battery compartment. Sealed the snot out of it and removed that stupid lock on the steps. Additional storage and accessible from the inside Add that to your list!

[Judge]

Originally Posted by Gmthrust

Hey Judge. I also removed the batts from the compartment. I then bought some pvc board (1/2") and enclosed the battery compartment. Sealed the snot out of it and removed that stupid lock on the steps. Additional storage and accessible from the inside Add that to your list!

That is an excellent idea!!! Thanks for the tip Gmthrust!!!

My wife and I just talkd about removing the lock earlier today because I am always banging my heel on the dang thing.... and that hurts!!!! I was going to have her make a fabric cover for it but removing it would be easier... and the step cover is hard to open without the lock as it is.

I don't think I'm going to have the time to tackle turning the battery compartment into storage before our trip next week but that may be a good project for next year. I could easily relocate the BIM, Bussman Breakers and the Bus Bar I installed last year to clean up the wiring to the outside of the battery box and then close it off and seal it up like you did.

Thanks for the idea!!!

[britinco]

Originally Posted by tomandgayle

We are considering a lithium upgrade. We have a 2017 ARIA and need to know if our charging system will be compatible with lithium. Thoughts?

I have just completed an Upgrade to Lithium Batteries on our Thor Aria 2018. I think we managed a good compromise between cost effectiveness and functionality

I went with two Ampere Time 300Ah batteries, because they were half the price compared to Battle Born, but seemed to have a good reputation and size. Both batteries fit into the old battery compartment perfectly, which was also nice. I replaced the GrapeSolar charger with the Victron MPPT 100V/300A charger. I replaced the Battery Isolation Manager (BIM) with a Lithium compatible one (Li-BIM). I kept my current ME2012-20B Inverter but added a ME-ARC50 controller to replace the control functionality of the FireFly internal panel. I could have upgraded the software for this $1600 or added a new color panel for about $2000, but you can still have the status information report on the Firefly but control from the ME-ARC50 (once setup never need change anyways). Additionally, like many people going down this route I added the Victron smart meter monitor, I also added an isolation switch as the one in the cab doesn’t really cut it.

Items purchased - $3,476 :-

• 2 x Ampere Time 12V 300Ah LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - $2,600
• Victron Energy SmartSolar MPPT 100V 30 amp 12/24-Volt Solar Charge Controller - $225
• Lithium Battery Isolation Manager (BIM) Li-BIM-225 - $172
• Victron Energy BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor - $206
• MAGNUM MAGN-ME-ARC50 / Remote Control Advanced ME Series - $250
• Five Oceans Battery disconnect switch - $23

Ampere Time batteries fitted perfectly, I had to use a custom profile on the ME-ARC to get the charging parameters correct, once charged the battery delivered the 600Ah it was rated at, I actually got 603Ah, but stopped the test before that.




Below is what it all looks like afterwards, the Victron Solar charger replaces the old SolarGrape, the ME-ARC connects to the control port of the magnum, just remove the existing FireFly (Second RG11 down). The Firefly still gets status on the RV-C bus, just leave the remote cable connected to the RVC bridge. Additionally, I was having some issues with the inverter taking over when I changed from shore to battery, its seems much smoother with the ME-ARC controlling things. One additional thing, I don’t believe my original BIM was wired correctly, when adding the new Li-BIM, I had to change the Chassis and House connection points around.

[DavidEM]

Can you post your alternator charging current with well discharged batteries? I understand that the Li BIM switches off and on every 15 minutes to limit load on the alternator but I am curious what the maximum amp load is.

David

[Chance]

Originally Posted by britinco

.....cut....

I went with two Ampere Time 300Ah batteries, because they were half the price compared to Battle Born, but seemed to have a good reputation and size. Both batteries fit into the old battery compartment perfectly, which was also nice. ....cut.....


• 2 x Ampere Time 12V 300Ah LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - $2,600

.....cut.....

Thanks for posting another great battery-price data point. That works out to $340 per kWh, which is so much more affordable than the +/- $1,000/kWh of just a few years ago.

I’m curious if those 300 Ah batteries are 8D size and how much they weigh? I suppose I could look at their specs since maximum current, charge rate, etc. also interest me. Thanks again.

[britinco]

Originally Posted by Chance

Thanks for posting another great battery-price data point. That works out to $340 per kWh, which is so much more affordable than the +/- $1,000/kWh of just a few years ago.

I’m curious if those 300 Ah batteries are 8D size and how much they weigh? I suppose I could look at their specs since maximum current, charge rate, etc. also interest me. Thanks again.

They weigh 69lbs, much lighter than the Lead Acid ones. They have a Built-in 200A BMS, 4000+ Cycles, 400amp Max.

Here is the URL the specs are shown
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[britinco]

Originally Posted by DavidEM

Can you post your alternator charging current with well discharged batteries? I understand that the Li BIM switches off and on every 15 minutes to limit load on the alternator but I am curious what the maximum amp load is.

David

I will try test that in the next couple of days!

[Judge]

Well.... I'm about 90% done with my LiFePO4 upgrade. The LI-BIM 225 should be delivered today and my third 170Ah battery will be delivered on Tuesday.

I'm glad I spent the money on custom cables. Xantrex states the battery cables should not be over 5 feet long. Turns out the cables Thor installed were about 8 feet long.... and they could have easily done it with 5 foot cables. The four feet cables I had made worked out well. It should allow the Xantrex Freedom X 2000 to perform a little more efficently.

Knocking out the existing spray foam and using two large holes already available made running the cables to the Inverter and the old battery compartment a breeze from under the dinette seat.

The new Progressive Dynamics PD9160ALV Converter was the exact same footprint as the PD 60 Amp Converter that I put in right after I bought the coach so it took about 5 minutes to swap them out. I also got the version that drops the voltage to 13.6V after the batteries are fully charged.

The two 170Ah batteries fire up the generator with no problem. As a matter of fact the starter seemed to spin faster and it started almost instantly in a about a single revolution.

I also installed the Victron Smart Shunt. It connected with their Bluetooth app with no issues. I just need to configure it for my batteries.

I will get the LI-BIM 225 installed tonight or tomorrow and then add some new spray foam to the big holes I used for running cable and also the small holes from where I removed the metal brackets for the seat belts. I installed some battery strap holders to secure the batteries and will be making some custom velcro straps to make it easy to remove the batteries.

I really like the Anderson Quick Connectors that BigBattery uses. It's nice not to deal with nuts to secure battery cables when installing and removing batteries. The third battery will be a breeze to drop in when it comes on Tuesday. It is also nice that they build in carrying handles for the batteries as well.

I had to figure out the best way to position the batteries under the dinette seat. Since I already installed the Central Vac there, I didn't have quite as much room as I thought but I do have plenty of room to add the third battery. There is a bit of a rats nest of wires in there now but it is not as bad as it looks. There are wires for the Solar Controller, Step Switch, Awning Switch and Inverter... plus the power cord for the Central Vac. Then there are all the battery cables, Inverter cables and cables to the old battery compartment.

It was also the easiest way to lose 100lbs.... wish I could lose weight that fast!

Here is a pic....

[Chance]

Originally Posted by britinco

They weigh 69lbs, much lighter than the Lead Acid ones. They have a Built-in 200A BMS, 4000+ Cycles, 400amp Max.

Here is the URL the specs are shown
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Thanks for information.

I’m amazed at how much lithium battery capacity they are building into single units. Initially 100 Ah batteries were pretty much the normal “large size”, but now that prices are dropping, and people are buying greater total capacity, batteries in the 300 Ah range are becoming more common.

Your battery weight is excellent for 300 Ah capacity; they can still be moved without excessive effort. Case size seems a little smaller than typical 8D, but maybe a little larger than 4D size; not that it matters as long as they fit nicely like yours. The RV Industry doesn’t seem to have many standards anyways. Thanks again.

[britinco]

Originally Posted by DavidEM

Can you post your alternator charging current with well discharged batteries? I understand that the Li BIM switches off and on every 15 minutes to limit load on the alternator but I am curious what the maximum amp load is.

David

So I just let my engine tick over and took some measurements. The battery was at about 30% charge. I don't know enough about alternators to know if they output charge differently if the engine was running higher. The alternator was putting about 75A into the battery. I hope this helps!

[DavidEM]

75 amps sounds like it may be too much and it will probably be higher at highway speeds. OTOH you will probably have air flow over the alternator while moving which should help.

You have a diesel pusher with the Cummins 6.7 engine right? That engine has a pretty robust alternator so you may be ok.

Maybe cycling on and off with the Li BIM every 15 minutes will help. Can you shoot the chassis alternator case with an IR gun while it is charging at that rate? Alternator case temps should be below 210 F or so.

David

[LarryD]

Judge, Do you think a 4th battery might be able fit in there if the dirt devil wasn't there? I'd like to build as big a bank as possible. maybe 4 up there an 2 under the step. Also, I'm looking at the 228 Big Battery Owl Max 2 which should yield 1,368 Ah, plenty for what I want to do. Finally, when you added your solar panels, did you come up with total sqft available and how many might fit up there? Thanks for all the hard work and trailblazing you do. You make it a lot easier for those who follow.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by LarryD

Judge, Do you think a 4th battery might be able fit in there if the dirt devil wasn't there? I'd like to build as big a bank as possible. maybe 4 up there an 2 under the step. Also, I'm looking at the 228 Big Battery Owl Max 2 which should yield 1,368 Ah, plenty for what I want to do. Finally, when you added your solar panels, did you come up with total sqft available and how many might fit up there? Thanks for all the hard work and trailblazing you do. You make it a lot easier for those who follow.

Hey Larry…..

I will take a measurement for you tomorrow but I think the 4th one would fit without the central vac. But you may want to check the dimensions of the 228’s since the case could be slightly bigger. I also found the dimensions on the spec sheet for the 100Ah were wrong but the website was correct. The spec sheet said they were just under 11” high but turns out they were 13” high.

You are going to want to make sure they fit through the opening in the step. The flooded batteries barely fit through and it takes some maneuvering.

You could also think about using the second dinette seat as well. At least in the SV34 it would be pretty easy to use that space for LiFePO4’s.

[Judge]

Originally Posted by LarryD

Judge, Do you think a 4th battery might be able fit in there if the dirt devil wasn't there? I'd like to build as big a bank as possible. maybe 4 up there an 2 under the step. Also, I'm looking at the 228 Big Battery Owl Max 2 which should yield 1,368 Ah, plenty for what I want to do. Finally, when you added your solar panels, did you come up with total sqft available and how many might fit up there? Thanks for all the hard work and trailblazing you do. You make it a lot easier for those who follow.

I forgot to answer your question about the solar panels. I had the two 160W Renogy flexble panels from my previsous coach and they did a good job. I could fit a couple more panels but wanted to leave enough room on the roof to move around and access the A/C units to clean them, etc.

Also, I just looked at the dimensions of the BigBattery units. The 202Ah unit is 7.1" wide. I was going to go with it but they were out of stock. The 228Ah unit is 7/5" wode and there is no way you would get that one into the battery compartment and why I didn't go wth that model. Had I known I would have been installing them under the dinette seat, I would have went with the 228Ah.

I do think you could use the other dinette seat of you want to install 6 - 8 batteries there.

[LarryD]

thank you so much! now I dont know if I should order 4 or 8 . Hey, did you get the cross fire with th tpms T? what pressure version?

[Judge]

Originally Posted by LarryD

thank you so much! now I dont know if I should order 4 or 8 . Hey, did you get the cross fire with th tpms T? what pressure version?

I did get the CrossFire with the TMPS option. I ordered mine before I ever weighed the coach and went with the 110PSI since that was the max pressure. I run 100PSI but it still works fine for my purposes... especially since pressures will run over 110PSI once driving. I believe they sell them in 5PSI increments.

[Judge]

I got my third 170Ah LiFePO4 from BigBattery today. Adding it to the existing system I setup took 5 minutes.

I’m at 510Ah capacity now with three batteries and I’m 100lbs lighter. It’s also nice having the batteries out of the battery compartment and under the dinette seat. That will help keep the temp better consistent since we will be seeing temps from the 90’s during the day at the start of the trip to the 30’s at night eventually.

I’m pretty happy with the setup and the better wiring so we’ll see how they perform. I was going to pull the coach out of the garage on Thursday and hook up the toad but I think I’m going to do it tomorrow at some point because Thursday looks to be a busy day. I’m going to let the Inverter power the two fridges and see how the batteries do.

[Hugh.vines@att.net]

Will these charge off your alternator. Just courteous. Good job

[macdaddy1111]

I drink Deer Park springwater also! HA