Ford Electric Vehicles Rendered Unprofitable

[Chance]

It may be a while before Electric RVs are economically practical going by automobile market.


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-...170117652.html


“Ford Motor Co.’s hot-selling Mustang Mach-E electric SUV and other plug-in models are being rendered unprofitable by rising raw material costs.”


Mention of $25,000 cost premium for similar-size electric SUV suggest Electric RVs that would require much greater battery capacity and are driven a lot less (reducing opportunity for fuel-cost savings) face strong headwinds.


“The company also has boosted prices on the Mach-E this year, he said, without giving specifics. But the model, which Ford is recalling for a defect that could cause it to stop running, now costs $25,000 more to produce than an equivalent gas-powered Edge SUV, he said.”

[ducksface]

I saw one of those Mustangs doing 50mph- in a 65mph+ zone two days ago.
WAAAAYYYY out on the Navajo reservation, I assume the speed was a kind of prayer about making it to Farmington where a three hour stopover would be required to charge to full.

With the added cost being admitted to, can we all finally admit this
mainstream electric vehicles are the savior
stuff,
at this time in space, was/is a financial device similar to the Solyndra circus?

Next wave, Next distraction, Next circus
Coming soon to a town near you.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by ducksface

I saw one of those Mustangs doing 50mph- in a 65mph+ zone two days ago.
WAAAAYYYY out on the Navajo reservation, I assume the speed was a kind of prayer about making it to Farmington where a three hour stopover would be required to charge to full.

With the added cost being admitted to, can we all finally admit this electric vehicle stuff, at this time in space, was/is a financial device similar to the Solara circus?

Not 3 hours, 30-45 minutes to 80%.

[ducksface]

Be fair.
How long to 100% on a non dedicated charger, low volume, less than $100,000 installation cost you might expect in a small town?

3 hours?
IF A STALL IS OPEN....

I filled my 8.1 liter 500ci 500hp 14mpg 500+-mile range truck to two pump click-offs before going out on the rez.
Let's assume the electric car guy is equally not stupid.

[JamieGeek]

Originally Posted by ducksface

Be fair.
How long to 100% on a non dedicated charger you might expect in a small town?
3 hours?

Sure, be fair: on a road trip you plan to stop at DCFC's which are 30-45 minutes to 80%.

You plan your routes taking an RV, right? Don't want to hit that low bridge? Or look at gas stations to make sure you can fit? How is that different then planning the EV road trip?

Two excellent sites on the web for helping plan EV road trips: Plughshare helps you find places to charge, and A Better Route Planner which does an excellent job planning a route including the best DCFC's.

We took our Mach-E to Cleveland and back last month. Had to charge there in order to get back..took all of about 25 minutes to charge up enough to get home.

Be fair: There are people road tripping EVs daily now...

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by JamieGeek

Sure, be fair: on a road trip you plan to stop at DCFC's which are 30-45 minutes to 80%.

You plan your routes taking an RV, right? Don't want to hit that low bridge? Or look at gas stations to make sure you can fit? How is that different then planning the EV road trip?

It's different because a car is not an RV. I don't plan fuel stops for my RV, I certainly don't plan fuel stops for my car on any trip because I know fuel is available almost anywhere I drive with a 5 minute stop, not an hour stop 30 minutes out of my way.

An electric vehicle would work for 90% of the car driving my wife and I do, but the 10% of inconvenience and the $25K price of admission make it not a good decision at this time.

[ducksface]

There are also people who buy rv's not knowing if they have a slide or not and if the dash air will work with the slide out if they do happen to find the slide.

The extraordinary user is exempt from ANY argument.

Any group has 50% below average folk in it.
50% of the below average are stupid,
50% of those are terminally clueless and didn't pay attention during the
How to buy a vowel
Portion of the game of life.

Just as a a percentage of rv owners are intolerably simple,
So goes electric car owners.
So goes rocket scientists.
So goes averages as a LAW.

You can't make electric car owners the very bastion of planning any more than you can convince me less than 10% of people can't know beef is cow.

Few, damn few, milliparts of 100, take their electric toy cross country.
Few will know of the time to fill it to 100% at a less than stellar station because of the 80% fill time propaganda.

Do not evade in your answer.
Directly, succinctly,
100% charge on a nonpremium low line charger using an adapter is how long if you turn off the vehicle and walk away.
100% charge is how long if you sit in it while charging and using the ac in our current 100+ heat?

[Chateau_Nomad]

Sounds eerily familiar to other stories of old...

I was "driving" between towns the other day and saw one of those new fangled "auto mobiles" stopped along the road with a spout of steam spraying from the front. I see it all the time!

When will these folks give up on this fad? I just park at the local store, give the horses a drink while I'm inside... and they're ready for the return trip.

These kids and their toys nowadays!! And don't get me started on those moving picture contraptions...

Every generation has the naysayers...

[Chance]

Let’s set charging inconvenience aside for now. The issue is that commodity prices for whatever is in short supply has “unexpectedly” made prices so much higher that profit is no longer what was projected. I’m not clear on whether this is due to copper, lithium, nickel, or whatever. Probably a combination. It does appear that costs are going up faster than inflation, so likely caused by market forces due to shortages.

Considering that electric vehicle manufacturing represents a small percentage of total, question I think is whether commodity prices can be lowered enough by increasing supply while at the same time using a lot more annually for the foreseeable future?

[ducksface]

Every generation has bleeding edge.
Every generation has tide-pod eaters.

The majority of smart people let these folks fail on both ends of the
Life spectrum
then adapt at the cost of those both ends.

Bleeding edge does not make you fail less than tide pod eaters.
Fervor does not make right. It makes loud. Right now, electric vehicle folk are loud. Their early adaptation does nothing of any scale for any one of them inparticular.
.1 percent of gross income savings? Ppaahhhhllleeeaze. It's the very definition of fanatic.

Doctors who smoke cigarettes.
Smart guys or not?

[EA37TS]

Originally Posted by Chance

Let’s set charging inconvenience aside for now. The issue is that commodity prices for whatever is in short supply has “unexpectedly” made prices so much higher that profit is no longer what was projected. I’m not clear on whether this is due to copper, lithium, nickel, or whatever. Probably a combination. It does appear that costs are going up faster than inflation, so likely caused by market forces due to shortages.

Considering that electric vehicle manufacturing represents a small percentage of total, question I think is whether commodity prices can be lowered enough by increasing supply while at the same time using a lot more annually for the foreseeable future?

No. Charging time is a cost of ownership, period.

What’s this crap about 80% charge. When I am on a road trip I don’t put 80% in the fuel tank. I fill it to full not 3/4 full.

What is the charge time to 100 percent at a roadside charging station? Whatever it is it’s a total waste of time.

[16ACE27]

Originally Posted by Chateau_Nomad

Sounds eerily familiar to other stories of old...

I was "driving" between towns the other day and saw one of those new fangled "auto mobiles" stopped along the road with a spout of steam spraying from the front. I see it all the time!

When will these folks give up on this fad? I just park at the local store, give the horses a drink while I'm inside... and they're ready for the return trip.

These kids and their toys nowadays!! And don't get me started on those moving picture contraptions...

Every generation has the naysayers...

But then they saw the advantages of higher speed, longer range, increased comfort, higher load carrying capability and they were converted.

Still looking for the list of advantages on the electric vehicles that make them the preferred choice for a majority of drivers. The disadvantage list is just too long.

[Chateau_Nomad]

Originally Posted by Chance

Let’s set charging inconvenience aside for now. The issue is that commodity prices for whatever is in short supply has “unexpectedly” made prices so much higher that profit is no longer what was projected. I’m not clear on whether this is due to copper, lithium, nickel, or whatever. Probably a combination. It does appear that costs are going up faster than inflation, so likely caused by market forces due to shortages.

Considering that electric vehicle manufacturing represents a small percentage of total, question I think is whether commodity prices can be lowered enough by increasing supply while at the same time using a lot more annually for the foreseeable future?

Let's be honest... the logic behind raising prices because of short supply is driven by greed and NOTHING else. The thing is, people have come to accept price gouging as a normal part of "doing business". I'm not taking a loss... I want to feed myself, so no soup for you! In reality, it's the SAME concept as letting your friend drown because you don't want to risk your own life attempting to save them. NO different at all, except what society has taught you.

Rather than some random spot in the supply chain, let's start at the SOURCE - for instance a lithium mine. Less lithium is being mined (the reason doesn't really matter) so lithium is in "short supply"... SO? Two choices - sell what you have at the current price - OR jack the price up (gouging) to make up for lost profit from "short supply". The sick logic goes... The business owner can't afford to "take a loss", so pass it on to the next guy. EVENTUALLY the consumer at the bottom of the food chain gets burned.

For "wants", who cares? Consumers have a choice of not buying the "price gouged" goods or services. HOWEVER, when price gouging affects basic food staples - uhhh... baby formula and such, you realize the rot and corruption allowed to fester in our "system".

That's a simplified version of the root of "inflation", which is just a polite word for price gouging. It's NOT the money supply, the FED and all those other distractions... it's simply a decision a person made based on greed... PERIOD.

In this case, Ford purchased components from a supply chain which originated with a person choosing to raise prices dramatically - that greed element. In this case, consumers have an easy choice... DON'T buy, and leave Ford stuck holding the bag. In simple terms, had the original purchaser of the lithium said NO to the purchase...

[ducksface]

https://www.windsorford.com/how-long...aker%20circuit.

The real, not to be said outloud by owners, answer is:
4 days to charge at lukachukai(after an overnight AT LEAST) in Holbrook to get over the mountain your 'plan' didn't tell you was there.
Then not making it quite to Shiprock for your next 4 day wait(the mustang I saw).
Then on to Farmington on a prayer for a charging station and it's three hour wait to get to not quite Pagosa Springs and you're on the apache rez knocking on doors.
Wolfcreek is probably entirely out of the question without a stay on both ends of that hill.
And
These are without the 40% range decrease AAA swears by when using ac, heat or climbing and that article STILL uses the 80% flagrant spew when addressing the incredibly ineffective parts of a drive.

Let's be real.
The above trip was the spousal units
Get in and go trip this week(twice in a month).
She doesn't need a new hobby of electric car nor does she need 4 days in lukachukai.


Truly, a horse may be quicker.

And now, like Lincoln mkll's, 50's cadillac Eldorado Biarritz, that stupud GM electric car of the 90's...fords electrics cost more to make than sell...which makes them a MARKETING PLOY and nothing else.

Electric cars are as good for an urban commute as a skateboard is.
Electric cars are as good for real encompassing life as a skateboard is.
The slightest second glance negates mainstream usage and relegates electric to hobby class vehicles.
Electric failed in Australia in the 90's(they even had battery quick change stations)and it failed here with the GM turd in the 90's.


Less. Tar. Cigarette.
(And an ICE vehicle sitting alongside it in the garage)

[Chance]

Nomad, I disagree. If there is a limited supply of lithium, or anything, and Ford, Tesla, VW, Mercedes, and every other battery manufacturer needs it, they will compete with each other; primarily through paying higher prices. It’s not greed, it’s competition. If or when prices get high enough, other companies will invest in lithium mining/production.

My question is why are so many BEVs being designed so inefficiently? The larger and less aerodynamic they become like SUVs, the more battery and motor size they need. Doesn’t that make commodity prices due to shortages worse.

If instead of installing 150 kWh of battery in a pickup truck, vehicle OEMs built three compact cars with 50 kWh each, would that help keep material prices down? And if not, isn't it easier to increase cost over three buyers instead of one?

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by Chance

If instead of installing 150 kWh of battery in a pickup truck, vehicle OEMs built three compact cars with 50 kWh each, would that help keep material prices down? And if not, isn't it easier to increase cost over three buyers instead of one?

Small ugly ev's sell to a small ugly class of people is truly how the market views it.
That small ugly too poor to buy a nice car group can't afford the charger in their rented home...the home they're not allowed to paint the bathroom let alone reconfigure the electric for their assigned uncovered parking space.

Restart.
The idea of inexpensive cars for broke folk doesn't work with electric.

No matter how some want it to be
Personal Electric vehicles are bought for esoteric reasons and none other.(maybe carpool exemptions are a good reason)

[The Gritz Carlton]

Originally Posted by ducksface

I saw one of those Mustangs doing 50mph- in a 65mph+ zone two days ago.
WAAAAYYYY out on the Navajo reservation, I assume the speed was a kind of prayer about making it to Farmington where a three hour stopover would be required to charge to full.

With the added cost being admitted to, can we all finally admit this
mainstream electric vehicles are the savior
stuff,
at this time in space, was/is a financial device similar to the Solyndra circus?

Next wave, Next distraction, Next circus
Coming soon to a town near you.

Seems carrying a portable generator in electric cars may be as smart as carrying them in motorhomes!!

[ducksface]

Originally Posted by The Gritz Carlton

Seems carrying a portable generator in electric cars may be as smart as carrying them in motorhomes!!

There's some start up company(I'm sure it's funded by the ceo's grandma) that has a steamlined trailer with a 9k(?) generator designed to tow behind an electric.
I think the biggest lie they could come up with was 45 miles added, kansas flat, 65°, 52mph, range.

I'll try to find the link.

[The Gritz Carlton]

I've often wondered why someone hasn't experimented with a small commuter driven by hydraulics...a 3 cylinder Kubota diesel could drive the hydraulic motors as well as an alternator and a small a/c compressor...braking would automatic and you'd probably get 125 miles to the gallon on fuel. My L3540 cab model rides like a Cadillac, has a great stereo and stays as cool as a cucumber inside.

[ducksface]

Some offroaders are experimenting with hydraulics.
Mostly for articulation since the motors are on the spindles and theres no drive, just hoses to the motor.

I think(barely) high speed/freeway speed might overheat hydraulic motors made of current materials and ceramics are too pricey.
And
Heat/speed might/probably creates cavitation in the fluid.

Some company has a hydraulic vehicle that somehow runs on mostly water as the hyd system. I can't see it.

(Except as cutting brakes I've never used the brakes on my 20series Deere as brakes. The fluid drive does it all.
I recently sold my little deere 140 h3's. Tiny little things with real hydraulics front and rear, a real pto and a center pto and a class zero hydraulic three point system with down force. Except for using the loader they didn't weigh enough to do anything. Blade wouldn't push, plow wouldn't, Gannon couldn't. Even with chains and weights they just spun out.)